[BTS] G-Major 156 - Any Leader, Domination, Deity, Epic - deadline 24th February 2018

[Dhoomstriker]

'PRESS ALT + CTRL + O TO CUSTOMIZE BUFFY SETTING' - but I don't want to! How do you guys get rid of this message?

First, press Ctrl + Alt + o (I don't why they put Ctrl and Alt in backward order and I don't know why they wrote a capital letter O, which would imply also pressing the Shift key, but the shortcut doesn't work if you also press the Shift key ). Then, head over to the Settings tab and uncheckmark the Options Shortcut Reminder checkbox.

Did you know that if an AI has a vassal, you cannot vassalize any of them?

It is possible to vassalize the Master, but not the Master's Vassal (as long as the Vassal doesn't break away).

The Master gets an inflated self-rating of its Power just by having a Vassal.

I played around in a test game and I confirmed that I could get a Master to capitulate to me. From what I can tell, there are some pretty high requirements to make it happen. Someone who can do some code-digging can probably give us the exact answers, but it looks like you need a prohibitively-high relative Power ratio, and other factors seem to be involved, such as your relative total population to that of the Master.

My general advise when facing off against a Master + Vassal relationship is just to focus fully on either the Master or the Vassal and eliminate that player completely, thereby explicitly breaking the Master + Vassal relationship and making it a lot easier to capitulate the remaining player. If you choose to focus on the Master, then it's possible that the Vassal will break free, but it might also just be easier to directly eliminate the weaker Vassal.

 

[Fippy]

Will finish my Qin game, doubt it's optimal but wanted to do something fun and Cho-Kus are.
Overall not enjoying Boreal much, but a rare leader at least brings some unit fun that i almost forgot by now.

Not sure about date yet, out of all AIs Gandhi resists capitulating and slows my army down (and more important, peace vassaling) lol.
I was hoping for around 1AD before that, but now i doubt it's possible.

 

[kovacsflo]

Will finish my Qin game, doubt it's optimal but wanted to do something fun and Cho-Kus are.
Overall not enjoying Boreal much, but a rare leader at least brings some unit fun that i almost forgot by now.

Not sure about date yet, out of all AIs Gandhi resists capitulating and slows my army down (and more important, peace vassaling) lol.
I was hoping for around 1AD before that, but now i doubt it's possible.

I am really wondering about your game. Playing with the Chinese? How can you strengthen your economy before machinery? Are cho-ko-nus really that good to worth for such a long time? To discover metal casting, BY SOME MIRACLE you could complete oracle, but you still need a lot more bulbs then.

And you have chosen Gandhi as one of your opponents? A leader who's worker can walk quickly in woods? And on the top of that, you still will be able to comfortably beat my AD355 result? OK, I am just confused now, very confused.

 

[Fippy]

Hope i can answer some questions then
Cho-kos are very good imo, i needed no catapults cos they are better with collateral damage and being strong attackers in one (2-3 first strikes, all melee units "welcome" in cities). So i was able to skip construction and still start serious wars against big AIs.

Oracle was nps. I teched to priesthood after the always needed BW and probably wheel & pottery (forgot if i found a hut tech this game), and had stolen workers ready to chop fast with IND. Need a strong gems start ofc, but we always want those.
Now i had MC, machinery bulb was prepared by those workers now quickly by chopping a cheaper forge & library in my cap for Engi and scientist specialists.

To bulb machinery with GS you need maths, alpha and Aesthetics..
alpha via trade, maths sometimes from Mansa if lucky (i met him too late for spy points) and Aesthetics was useful later to sell for gold.
That's my whole "economy" in those games
Selling stuff for gold, and capture gold.
I built no cottages or courthouses, and it's working fine with 10+ AIs that are not teching very fast on Boreal but do have some gold now and then.

 

[kovacsflo]

I am still 100% sure that Gilgamesh can do a better job than Qin Shi. Vultures are not supergood units, but they do a decent job and with Gilgamesh, you don't need to wait for so long to get your army ready, all you need is BW.

I am sure though that there is something I should do better in my games, and I could imagine it's the number of opponents. I will try to set some more guys.

 

[WastinTime]

That's my whole "economy"

Do you trade for Monarchy and feudal?

 

[WastinTime]

To get peace vassals, you need a high power rating. Power comes from various places, like tech, but mostly, I think of it as units. Barracks and many other buildings also give some. Here are some values of the top of my head (and some I had to look up):

warrior: 2K
Archer/Barracks: 3K
Chariot/Immortal/Spear : 4K
Axe/HorseArcher/Longbow/Sword : 6K
Choko : 7K

This shows that Axes are the best hammer to power ratio. i.e. the cheapest way to build what the AI sees as power.

 

[Fippy]

Traded for Monarchy, but self-teched Feuda (i think this was a mistake, did not get vassals that early and Engi for road movement and Trebs sooner would have been better).

115 AD in the end (if accepted), not BC as i hoped while it was going really well but still okay
AIs did not play as i wanted in the end, with resisting capitulations (huge problem that Zara was isolated on an island with 2 cities, and Sury a weak Cathy vassal like Freddy) and "you have grown too powerful for us" against peace vassaling, was really annoying lol.

Interesting list WT, i would have thought Chokos are worth more..only 1k more than Axes shrug.

 

[Pedro78]

"you have grown too powerful for us" against peace vassaling

Do you know how this works exactly?

 

[Fippy]

Some pics (game was accepted, fast as usual merci Lymo & NZ ).

Small empire shortly after the Oracle was completed in Guanghzou, forge & library for machinery bulb chopping in Bejing.

Spoiler :

Notice the few AIs met, i was really worried about that..no Mansa yet, edge of the map not good.

My woodie II worker stealer, Brennus nice and close. Think i stopped soon after this point thou, alreadx -3g / turn for units.

Spoiler :

Iron discovery was a shock, Joao had stolen "mine" and i settled all that way down for the only one in reach. No copper earlier, so would have been helpless in taking his city.

Spoiler :

But on turn 111 it was finally chocolate..oops Cho-Ko time, and Bejing can whip away those specialists.

Spoiler :

In excitement i queued 5, but am sure i added cleanup units like swords from whip overflow

My favorite move this game, circled tile had no culture and i sneaked some closer units there before declaring on 10 city Lincoln who was busy "invading" Cathy. Weakly defended Washington fell, and he capitulated after only 3 turns

Spoiler :

Cause of many problems, Zara's island exile..all those red fists you can see are "wars" against him where nothing happened cept AIs building stacks and limiting diplo options.

Spoiler :

Grabbing some of that ice land for domination % was nice, but i still would have preferred something normal. Unsure about high sea levels now.

The end

Spoiler :

Strike only on the last turn, after i spent all my gold for culture slider.
Choc-Kos wave goodbye.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Some pics (game was accepted, fast as usual merci Lymo & NZ ).

You're welcome - awesome game, well done.

 

[Fippy]

Do you know how this works exactly?

I looked at an old post from Dan (will look again for link), where he said that if you are getting closer to domination, AIs refuse "helping" by peace vassal.
But Wastin Time should know more about that, as he had much more success in other games (i got zero peace vassals lol, after carefully picking AIs that can do so at cautious and pleased).

edit, strange i cannot find the post anymore sorry.
Was short thou, he just said it's an anti easy-win mechanic.

 

[elitetroops]

Great game, Fippy! Surprised it could be won so fast, despite a very late start with your wars.

This shows that Axes are the best hammer to power ratio. i.e. the cheapest way to build what the AI sees as power.

Praets at 8k soldiers offer an even better soldiers/hammer ratio. Weird that Cho-ko's are only equal to Xbows.

 

[Fippy]

Merci, mixed on the early city conquering vs. waiting for stronger units topic.

With Chokos there was no waiting time for reinforcements, until longbows (which was still some time away) nothing stopped them and they needed not much healing.
Snowball effect imo, perfect early attacks are most likely faster but i found it difficult finding good maps for that.
On marathon it's no problem if you need recovery breaks, but on Epic time keeps pushing.

 

[elitetroops]

70 turns from unlocking Chokos to taking out 8 AI and winning domination is still very impressive!

I'm curious, why did you include Mansa? His main purpose as an AI is to raise the general tech pace, which seems like the last thing you'd want in a domination game. Boosted archers make him an even worse opponent.

Sury is another AI I would never add to a domination/conquest game.

 

[Fippy]

Mansa for easy trade chances, was unlucky with maths (2 turns i think before i researched it myself, he was trading).
Meeting him late was bad for spy spoints, i could have teched Aest instead of maths already :-/

Agree that faster tech pace is not good, but i valued getting stuff from him higher.
Sury can vassal at pleased, was one of those that i put in for peace vassal, sadly never worked.

Think i would put both in again, but not Cathy..she always expands big and causes problems, not worth the trouble imo for cautious vassal chances.
Overall if i copy WT on predictions of how fast games with Qin could be won, i would set between 100-150 BC ~~
I was on the map edge, iron problems & only 3 starting cities, and with 0 peace vassals there's lot of time for improvement. But i will rather try Gandhi next i think.

 

[WastinTime]

huge problem that Zara was isolated on an island with 2 cities

You know, with only 2 cities, you can just gift him 4 cities, recapture the same turn. You'll have no war losses, so Zara will talk quickly and capitulate since you have 40 war success. Or he should peace vassal.

Great finish date. Don't you think you could have cut off a lot of turns if you had a half dozen vassals? You only get 50% of their land tiles counting towards domination, but that's a lot.

 

[WastinTime]

Do you know how this works exactly?

They won't peace vassal if you are too close to a domination victory (If their land and pop gets us over 75% of the domination threshold.) ("You've grown too powerful for us.")

 

[WastinTime]

why did you include Mansa?

Mansa also peace vassals at cautious.

 

[WastinTime]

Traded Joao for Monarchy 118 (took HeredRule which is very nice.)
Feudal is due 130, but I don't think I can take peace vassals that early. I'm tempted to take Fippy's advice and research something else first. But I feel like I'm better off just getting to feudal and shutting off research. Save the money for a larger army and more city maint.