G-Major 29

[WastinTime]

After I reach liberalism trade/tech for music drama and start building cathedrals, hemeratage, sinistine and tach mahal. It helps to chop alot of forests down in this "phase".

I prefer to have chopped everything for my capitol city while still in Bureaucracy for the extra hammers.

 

[ssjos]

I prefer to have chopped everything for my capitol city while still in Bureaucracy for the extra hammers.

Hmm yeah I guess 50% more for chopping could be nice, however with the tech path I used I dont really need the hammers all that bad before I get nationalism and music. What do you build with your forests?

 

[WastinTime]

Hmm yeah I guess 50% more for chopping could be nice, however with the tech path I used I dont really need the hammers all that bad before I get nationalism and music. What do you build with your forests?

I like to be 1st to music (free artist), so there's plenty to build, temples, missionaries, cathedrals, theatre, monast, etc.

 

[FiveAces]

Whoa! This is not easy, at least on vanilla. 1st attempt ended in 1620 diplo loss to Washington. 1st to lib in a respectable time of 125AD, capital legendary a bit later than usual, but ok, gp farm had enough GA's, but 2nd city nowhere near. Mediocre map and only 2 religions though had an effect. Have to go back to the drawing board to get more religion. Maybe even confu before alpha.


EDIT: It shouldn't be that hard to fix though. Hermitage in 2nd cottage city instead of capital, philo instead of spiritual (played Mansa), and one more religion would have done it in 15xx, even with the suboptimal map.

 

[Pious_Pete]

Defeat #7 1605 Space Race Ganhdi
Defeat #8 1660 Diplomacy

The second of these wasn´t too bad an attempt, though I was still probably 20 turns or so off winning.

I probably got to Liberalism around 250AD (though losing the race), and I switched of building (6 cats+hermitage) c 1200.

This begs the question:-

What is the timeline for a win c1600? What are my target dates for

a) Alphabet
b) Liberalism
c) Completing the building phase?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I probably got to Liberalism around 250AD (though losing the race), and I switched of building (6 cats+hermitage) c 1200.

Getting to Liberalism by 250 AD is probably OK.

However, getting beat to Liberalism is bad; it may be advisable to abandon such a game unless cottage development and culture making building are well developed.

This begs the question:-

What is the timeline for a win c1600? What are my target dates for

a) Alphabet

Turn 50 (BC 2000)

b) Liberalism

Turn 120 (AD 125)

c) Completing the building phase?

What are you asking? When to stop building Cathedrals?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[FiveAces]

1610AD.

Decent food-rich map, still no marble and only 3 spread religions. I knew it was going to be a strange game when Mansa founded CoL before the Oracle was built and then Asoka Oracled Feudalism and proceeded to beat me to CS in 800bc. Sure enough, I got beat to Lib in 50 freaking AD and had to self research Nationalism, the rest of Lib and all but 2 turns of PP.

I made a lot of mistakes with the trading. Or it could have just been the usual trades weren't available because of all the crazy AI teching that was going on. Also mistimed my GS pop for philo by 1 turn and lost out to Mansa again. That cathedral would have saved a bunch of turns.

Delayed pacifism until the switch to FS around 400AD. Still popped 14gp (1 late academy, 2 settled, 10 bombed in GP farm and 1 in 2nd city). Capital went legendary on its own.

@Pious Pete
Alpha by t45
CS by 800bc
Lib by 200ad and run FS/Pacifism no matter what the building status is

EDIT: I built 2 WW - Notre Dame, because I had stone and it was still available, and the Colossus of all things, because my second city was coastal and the AI obsoleted it before anybody built it.

 

[jesusin]

What is the timeline for a win c1600? What are my target dates for
...
c) Completing the building phase?

I don't have a precise timetable, since I don't rushbuy.

Imagine there is a jesusin playing by your side. He will go 100% culture on 250AD, no matter how few catedrals. Are your actions going to beat him or to put you behind him?

All I know for sure is the last cathedral in each city should be finished by hand (the slow way). IMO, you are rushbuying too much.

Do the maths around 750AD: when would you win if you went 100% culture right now? Now compare that to running 100% gold for N turns, buying another cathedral and then running 100% culture till the end, is that worth it?

 

[Pious_Pete]

Getting to Liberalism by 250 AD is probably OK.

However, getting beat to Liberalism is bad; it may be advisable to abandon such a game unless cottage development and culture making building are well developed.

I think you are probably right about abandoning such games. I believe I read Jesusin claiming to finish all games, but I suspect I am wasting rather a lot of time playing through doomed outcomes.

 

[Pious_Pete]

What are you asking? When to stop building Cathedrals?

Essentially, yes.

 

[Pious_Pete]

I don't have a precise timetable, since I don't rushbuy.

Imagine there is a jesusin playing by your side. He will go 100% culture on 250AD, no matter how few catedrals...

All I know for sure is the last cathedral in each city should be finished by hand (the slow way). IMO, you are rushbuying too much.

I suspect you are correct. My last game was better than my previous ones precisely because fewer religions spread and I was forced to build fewer cathedrals.

I´m going to try superhard in my next game to sit on my hands after 250AD i.e. let any cats finish themselves and not start any new ones and see where that gets me.

 

[Pious_Pete]

1610AD.
@Pious Pete
Alpha by t45
CS by 800bc
Lib by 200ad and run FS/Pacifism no matter what the building status is

Thanks for that. These dates chime in pretty well with what Jesusin and Sun Tzu Wi suggest, so I´m going to use these as the benchmark in my next game.

 

[FiveAces]

I suspect you are correct. My last game was better than my previous ones precisely because fewer religions spread and I was forced to build fewer cathedrals.

I´m going to try superhard in my next game to sit on my hands after 250AD i.e. let any cats finish themselves and not start any new ones and see where that gets me.

No, you should continue building as many as you can, you just have to build them from scratch without OR or beauro. Sometimes I will save a couple forests in the 2nd city for this purpose. But WastinTime is right, you should chop out your capital while under beauro. And don't do early chopping either, except to get a settler out.

That's another point - is your capital build queue worker-warrior-settler-settler? If not that could be one of the reasons you are having difficulty.

I think you are probably right about abandoning such games. I believe I read Jesusin claiming to finish all games, but I suspect I am wasting rather a lot of time playing through doomed outcomes.

If it's doomed for certain sure, but missing lib doesn't necessarily mean that, as my result proves. I think if you have good 2nd city and gp farm and can still research lib and nationalsim by around 400AD you should press on even if you are beat to lib.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I suspect you are correct. My last game was better than my previous ones precisely because fewer religions spread and I was forced to build fewer cathedrals.

I´m going to try superhard in my next game to sit on my hands after 250AD i.e. let any cats finish themselves and not start any new ones and see where that gets me.

Try building every Cathedral you have the religion and strategic (hammer doubling) resource for. Never gold rush these.

If you are missing the strategic resource, think hard about building that Cathedral. These can be gold rushed into hammer poor cultural cities, but these are also the cities that should be bombed by late GAs. If you do build them, they should be the last Cathedrals you build, since they take forever to build; you want the cultural multiplying effect of your cheaper Cathedrals while building these expensive ones.

Don't be shy about gold rushing temples you need to allow the corresponding Cathedral, especial if you want to build that Cathedral in 1-2 turns. Hammer build the temples for at least 1 turn to avoid the 4.5 gold per hammer price. 3 gold per hammer is bad enough.

Non-Cathedral related ideas:

For normal speed, early GAs probably could be settled. It's hard to compute the turn at which GAs should be saved. I'd say, error on the side of saving GAs earlier than you think may be optimal, since it will be much easier to know where to bomb them on the last few turns than where to settle them early.

BTW, turn 120 for Liberalism may be a little too aggressive. I'd say that turn 125 (AD 250) is right on target.

Don't forgot to run the cultural slider as high as possible. The best way to use gold is to save it till later after all Cathedrals are build and use that gold (deficit spent) to run the cultural slider at 100% until you run of gold and win (ideally at the same time).

Build as few non-culture adding buildings as possible. About the only exception is the Aqueduct and maybe Grocer for adding Health when absolutely necessary. However, running a city at a large negative Health can be better than building these Health buildings, especially later in the game.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[FiveAces]

If you need gold, just ask. You should be able to get at least 60 from most of them at least twice if you wait long enough between the requests. It really helps stay at 100% slider before you can trade your happies.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

If it's doomed for certain sure, but missing lib doesn't necessarily mean that, as my result proves. I think if you have good 2nd city and gp farm and can still research lib and nationalsim by around 400AD you should press on even if you are beat to lib.

I didn't mean to imply that every cultural game should be abandoned if the race to Liberalism is lost, but the Civ that beat you to Liberalism will often beat you in the end. Only abandon, if too much else has gone wrong in addition to losing the race to Liberalism.

BTW, in your race to Liberalism, never research a Technology that's either not on the way to Alphabet, Music or Liberalism or that could be easily traded for later. Think twice about making trades for Technologies that aren't really required for a cultural win.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

If you need gold, just ask.

That's very kind of you.
I am a bit short of cash myself, wouldn't you send me anything?

 

[Pious_Pete]

No, you should continue building as many as you can, you just have to build them from scratch without OR or beauro.

In my most recent game (of which more later), I finished building my 2 cats by 1030. I only had one religion until 1250 when a couple more spread.

I decided to sit on my hands at this point, because it seemed a bit late to be building cats. I guess it´s a matter of judgement as to when its not worth it.

 

[Pious_Pete]

That's another point - is your capital build queue worker-warrior-settler-settler? If not that could be one of the reasons you are having difficulty.

Until fairly recently, my build queue was worker-settler-worker-pyramids with warriors thrown in so that settler build was at size 2, and the second worker at size 3.

However, I am now trying for wins without any world wonders, and my queue has been worker-settler-settler (with the second city building a settler straight away as well). I´ve been throwing warriors in as appropriate.

But what is appropriate? I grow to size 2 before starting on the 1st settler. Should I grow to size 3 before starting on the second?

 

[Pious_Pete]

About the only exception is the Aqueduct and maybe Grocer for adding Health when absolutely necessary. However, running a city at a large negative Health can be better than building these Health buildings, especially later in the game.

Sun Tzu Wu

I always build the aquaduct; but I am convinced that negative health is preferable to building a grocer.