G-Major 43

[AgedOne]

Well done AgedOne

When I'm spreading the AP religion to other friendly civs, I quite often just get inside their borders and give them the missionary. They usually spread it to a decent city, and their chances of success with the missionary are better than mine in their own cities.

Ianw1610 is right when he says that there's no big rush for the AP or Theology - although I haven't gone so far as to take Metal Casting from the Oracle

My main problem has tended to be that the four civs on the same hemisphere as me don't found *any* religions between them. Which means that I have to found both Christianity and another, late game, religion. Not helpful

Anyway, my latest effort was also 685AD, so I'm quite pleased with that ...

Cheers!
It was a strange game - my first win - I intend to try again.
Still in the search for the near-mythical 'whole world reachable by galleys', I tried the settings: massive continents, normal islands, 4 continents, low sea-level in the hope that 4 massive continents would fill all of the available space and afford shallow bridges between everything. Nope! Didn't work.

Wonders. I went wonder-happy and built stonehenge (for the prophet), then the oracle (but too soon for me to take theology - though I couldn't delay until I was ready for fear of losing it), and finally the pyramids. Then the prophet got me theology, and I could also run some good civics for my push to optics.

I'm puzzled. Why do you say "I have to found both Christianity and another, late game, religion."? Am I being thick? What's the other religion for?

The main reasons I can see for my woeful finish date are:
I had concentrated (foolishly) on spreading rel only to the smallest city of each civ. Since my nearest neighbour had got christianity in virtually every
city, and always abstained (close border tensions) he would have blocked my win vote. I needed big-voting friends to overhaul his lost votes. It took quite a while to send all those missionaries across the world!

I forget just how many AP win votes there were before I finally got it!!

 

[Misotu]

I'm puzzled. Why do you say "I have to found both Christianity and another, late game, religion."? Am I being thick? What's the other religion for?

It's to give to my four neighbours on my continent, so they don't all convert to Christianity. I usually have Asoka, Joao, Lincoln and Ramses on my continent and you'd hope that one of them would found Buddhism, Hinduism or Judaism and spread it around before I get Christianity. But I've had a few games where they've founded nothing - so I have to found Confu or Tao and spread it to them before seeding Christianity. (Or I spread Christianity around and then make Taoism the AP religion. Whatever).

No way you can get a good date if you have to make that detour unfortunately

 

[Jbourne]

I'm puzzled. Why do you say "I have to found both Christianity and another, late game, religion."? Am I being thick? What's the other religion for?

The need for two religions is to make sure that you are the only candidate for the AP. Let me explain.

AI rarely change their religion. So early in the game you want to make sure all other AI get a religion. If all AI do not have a religion, then use you first religion, likely Confu, to spread to the AI without a religion. So by the time you have christianity and building the AP, spread christianity all AI but make sure you spread it in their least populous city (this give less AP votes and no incentive for them to change religion). Only thing you need to make sure is to not have more than 65% of vote. Slavary can help with this problem.

Now if each AI has a religion, then all is well. Use the AI with correct early civics in your game. This will give you the civic points from AI's if you use that civic.

 

[AgedOne]

It's to give to my four neighbours on my continent, so they don't all convert to Christianity. I usually have Asoka, Joao, Lincoln and Ramses on my continent and you'd hope that one of them would found Buddhism, Hinduism or Judaism and spread it around before I get Christianity. But I've had a few games where they've founded nothing - so I have to found Confu or Tao and spread it to them before seeding Christianity. (Or I spread Christianity around and then make Taoism the AP religion. Whatever).

No way you can get a good date if you have to make that detour unfortunately

The need for two religions is to make sure that you are the only candidate for the AP. Let me explain.

AI rarely change their religion. So early in the game you want to make sure all other AI get a religion. If all AI do not have a religion, then use you first religion, likely Confu, to spread to the AI without a religion. So by the time you have christianity and building the AP, spread christianity all AI but make sure you spread it in their least populous city (this give less AP votes and no incentive for them to change religion). Only thing you need to make sure is to not have more than 65% of vote. Slavary can help with this problem.

Now if each AI has a religion, then all is well. Use the AI with correct early civics in your game. This will give you the civic points from AI's if you use that civic.

Thanks to you both.

I do understand. I had been aware that one thing to avoid at all costs was another civ adopting christianity and rivalling you for the AP residency.
I hadn't come up with much of a plan to avoid this happening.
What you are describing is a scheme to ensure that each AI is happy with a religion and therefore unlikely to switch to yours. It's not guaranteed to work, of course, but it lowers the chance of a switch.

I promise to think about it in my next attempt (obviously I may not need to do anything actively about this as long as the AI adopt their own religions).

I also promise not the beat your scores.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'm also an Everton fan... currently exhibiting crossed fingers, toes, etc, ahead of our two forthcoming games against the team who you mention (the team whose name I can't bring myself to type). It is also worth pointing out the often-overlooked fact that Everton have been in the top division of English football for more seasons than ANY other team...

Finally, someone with sense on this forum

The teams are out, listening to it on 5Live. Come on Blues!!!!

 

[Misotu]

I do understand. I had been aware that one thing to avoid at all costs was another civ adopting christianity and rivalling you for the AP residency.
I hadn't come up with much of a plan to avoid this happening.
What you are describing is a scheme to ensure that each AI is happy with a religion and therefore unlikely to switch to yours. It's not guaranteed to work, of course, but it lowers the chance of a switch.

Absolutely! I quite often build the odd missionary to help another civ out - say Asoka founds Hinduism and is spreading it around happily - including to me - but there's one civ that's close to me and far from him with no religion. I will build one Hindu missionary and send it off to the capital of the civ with no religion, just to make sure. Or, say a civ is running Hinduism on the basis of one poor little city and then my intended AP religion spreads to their capital, I'll despatch a missionary off to make sure that they stick with Hinduism. It's a distraction, but if you have a reasonable production city it's not so expensive just to make sure ...

 

[ianw1610]

Finally, someone with sense on this forum

The teams are out, listening to it on 5Live. Come on Blues!!!!

I watched it on Setanta, and pressed mute whenever Steve McManamanamanamanaman was asked for his opinion... Great result for us!! I usually have Reds fans taunting me all the time about one thing or another... they are strangely quiet today!

My main problem has tended to be that the four civs on the same hemisphere as me don't found *any* religions between them.

I had the opposite of that in one game... EVERY religion was founded on my continent, and nothing on the other continent... So I had to use the same principle to spread a non-AP religion to the second continent, which severely hindered the victory date.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmmm? Wouldn't it be easiest just to bulb optics and include a bunch of AIs with similar favorite civics? We're even philosophical.

I have an idea for this. I mean basically all you need is theology and optics, should be doable. I think I'll try a high-seafood start, I have an interesting idea.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

If you have theology won't you bulb paper instead of optics?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ah...good point. I almost never use that route so I forgot about it .

I guess one could try to mids/rep it, and hope to get lucky with an engineer to bulb machinery. I'm not convinced the bottleneck is tech though, im going to try it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oh yes. I love it. I love garbage competition, where the victory condition is bugged. I love it when the AP, when everyone has the religion, and yet nobody has over 75% of the votes, doesn't have a resolution for 50 turns.

I love it when gandhi declares on me without the AP or vassal status forcing him to, and then he proceeds to vassal the ally I bring in, ruining my diplo with that guy, but it would have never happened if the !@#$%@#% ing AP worked in the first place.

Oh yes, I love it to death.

Edit:

Pretend I won around 1100 AD (because if the game worked, I did). IMO sooner is possible.

Edit 2: Seems I could win it anyway, but only in 1275 AD :/

 

[Ozbenno]

Zara Yaquob

I read Sun Tzu say he was a good opponent for AP victories (as he starts with a hidden +2 modifier) so threw him in. He was on the other continent and was the last AI I had to get a missionary to. In 870 the missionary arrives and I can't convert. He was in his fave civic Theocracy and therefore I can't get him out and I can't win this game anytime soon. I had christianity in every city on my continent and all the AI on it were friendly, so I would have won easily soon after this.

I might swap him out for Asoka and try again

I hadn't read through this thread so interesting to see people chasing Machinery or Metal Casing with the Oracle, do you hope to bulb Theo with a GP afterwards. Machinery might be leaving it too long (ie by the time the GP appears Theology is gone).

Anyway, back to the drawing board.

 

[Misotu]

Zara, yes. I notice everyone using him too, and so I've included him in many of my games. Don't worry if he's in Theocracy - just gift the missionary to him and he will use it. Of course, then you don't get to choose the city (some of the AIs just use it in the nearest city. Other, more sophisticated AIs send it off to their largest )

But it works.

I find Zara often declares war on me or someone else, so I don't tend to use him any more.

 

[Misotu]

@TheMeInTeam: I think it's best to turn off vassals for this game. I also turn off random events - I know they can be beneficial (sometimes *very* beneficial) for religious games, but there are just too many negative diplomatic events and I prefer to have control.

 

[AgedOne]

Zara Yaquob

Zara, yes. I notice everyone using him too, and so I've included him in many of my games. Don't worry if he's in Theocracy - just gift the missionary to him and he will use it. Of course, then you don't get to choose the city (some of the AIs just use it in the nearest city. Other, more sophisticated AIs send it off to their largest )

But it works.

I find Zara often declares war on me or someone else, so I don't tend to use him any more.

I think this happened to me, too. (Might not have been Zara, but certainly someone played the Theocracy trick on me). I also gifted the misso to him - but more through luck than judgement . I had abandoned him on Zara's continent and had no transport handy to move him elsewhere. Thought I'd try gifting him and it worked!

I might swap him out for Asoka and try again

I've usually found that Asoka has been a good companion on the AP victory quest. Not as good as Hattie-bell. She's always an angel (apart from that one time when she stuck at +6. Grr. All my fault, of course)

I hadn't read through this thread so interesting to see people chasing Machinery or Metal Casing with the Oracle, do you hope to bulb Theo with a GP afterwards. Machinery might be leaving it too long (ie by the time the GP appears Theology is gone).

I've been trying a variation where I get the (normally fairly useless) Stonehenge first, and then go for the Oracle. I have often found that I'm struggling to get all of the required tech to allow Theocracy from the Oracle. Unless I delay completion, in which case I risk an AI getting Oracle first. But this way, I can choose something else from the Oracle, and then use the GP from the Henge to bulb Theocracy. Seems to work every time

However, since the only finish date I've recorded for this so far has been somewhere near the end of time, no-one should take my strategies as being highly recommended

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TheMeInTeam: I think it's best to turn off vassals for this game. I also turn off random events - I know they can be beneficial (sometimes *very* beneficial) for religious games, but there are just too many negative diplomatic events and I prefer to have control.

I agree in hindsight. Either way I wasn't going to be posting a winning time, so it doesn't matter *that* much.

However, what bothered me most was the "sleeping AP". After getting a resolution much earlier (I think pre-1000 AD) the first time I got ANY resolution after that was 1275 AD! That's...kind of iffy. Religious leader was a viable option from 1100 AD to 1275 AD (with no resolutions for a while before 1100 AD). I had a problem with this in one of my AP games I did a walkthrough a long time back also. It seems some things trigger an AP glitch, where you don't get the resolution for a long, long time.

In both cases, manually saving the game, quitting civ, then booting it up seemed to help. Was that coincidence? I don't know. I'm assuming my game is still HoF legal after doing that, because I didn't replay any turns...although it's not going to be a useful game to me for EQM either .

 

[Misotu]

I would really like to know how the AP works, in terms of the vote coming up. There's obviously some sort of pattern, but I have no idea what it is and can't read the code, didn't write the game, so I think we non-techies are at a bit of a disadvantage here

I can't really comment on your situation, TheMeInTeam. When I build the AP, I occasionally get an option to stop trading with someone, but generally I only get diplomatic victory. Sometimes that comes up quite quickly and sometimes it seems to take *forever*. I assume there must be a pattern - after the election for leader is called, I guess that nothing comes up for a given number of turns. So the *really* erudite player would time the build of the AP to coincide with the correct interval for them to get their missionaries out to all the remaining civs.

I am not that erudite player

My last game was a beauty - everything (well, almost everything) went really well and I was on for my best date ever, by quite a margin. And then my missionary failed to spread to Gandhi, the last civ on the other continent. Not once. THREE TIMES. In a size 14 city with just one other religion. I feel like writing in to complain.

:howl:

 

[Ozbenno]

I never knew about the gift missionary trick. That'll help out heaps.

 

[Misotu]

@AgedOne: Your strategy works, which is good. But ...

I recommend trying a few games just going straight for the Oracle and jolly well not bothering with Henge, Mids or any other distractions. You may miss out the odd time, but you should get it and I am pretty sure that will give you a faster result.

 

[Misotu]

I never knew about the gift missionary trick. That'll help out heaps.

Yes

I should have used it on Gandhi's size 14 city. That'll teach me to be a control freak.

howl