G-Major 43

[AgedOne]

@AgedOne: Your strategy works, which is good. But ...

I recommend trying a few games just going straight for the Oracle and jolly well not bothering with Henge, Mids or any other distractions. You may miss out the odd time, but you should get it and I am pretty sure that will give you a faster result.

Mmm. I was trying the 'straight-through' approach earlier on. I may go back to it.

Thing is ... Henge may well lose me about 15 turns, but I'm currently about 150 turns off the pace in my finishes .

Just submitted another one cos it was better than my initial 1782 - but it was only just better! 1665!

I only just got my first caravels out there in 900AD, but that was just the start of the long slow drag. Didn't take tooo long to get christianity to everyone, but then I found the only way to get Mansa - on my continent and sitting on a stack of votes - up to +7 was to use his favourite civic. That's Free Market, and it took aeons to research to economics and switch.

After that it was a breeze.

(Can't imagine how I would get below 1100AD. I'd have to become part-cyborg and play in truly efficient style)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@AgedOne: Your strategy works, which is good. But ...

I recommend trying a few games just going straight for the Oracle and jolly well not bothering with Henge, Mids or any other distractions. You may miss out the odd time, but you should get it and I am pretty sure that will give you a faster result.

Might be easier to just build mids, self-research theo, and use the engineer to bulb machinery. I tried just going mass scientist spam no wonders and even that was halfway ok.

 

[AgedOne]

Might be easier to just build mids, self-research theo, and use the engineer to bulb machinery. I tried just going mass scientist spam no wonders and even that was halfway ok.

Interesting. Mids and an engineer is closer to an ordinary strategy that I would use any time. This reminds me that I've been concentrating on 'unusual' strategies to get a good start in an unusual situation - going for a religious victory over two continents is a new one on me!

As you said, there are a number of approaches that work well in the early stages.

Where I'm falling down badly is in the middle game. I'm trying to focus on getting a good tech rate, optics, and then start missionarizing. It's just taking centuries! And I need to work out why.

 

[Misotu]

I'm going to fall on my sword.

Best game to date - really played my strategy *properly* and even got a lucky pop - animal husbandry - fairly early.

Heading for a victory pre-300 AD, which is just too exciting for words. Up comes the religious victory option ...

... and I lose. Why? Because Hattie abstained.

ON +10 and FRIENDLY.

Why me? Why me?

howl


PS This was such a weird game. Nine civs, including me. Five civs running the AP religion. NOT including me.
Weird.

 

[ZPV]

I'm going to fall on my sword.

Best game to date - really played my strategy *properly* and even got a lucky pop - animal husbandry - fairly early.

Heading for a victory pre-300 AD, which is just too exciting for words. Up comes the religious victory option ...

... and I lose. Why? Because Hattie abstained.

ON +10 and FRIENDLY.

Why me? Why me?

howl


PS This was such a weird game. Nine civs, including me. Five civs running the AP religion. NOT including me.
Weird.

The AI will abstain if it has the same relations with both candidates.
I would guess Hatty was also friendly with your opponent in the AP election, right?

 

[Misotu]

That is a likely explanation - I didn't check it. Although, since she was running Confu, it shouldn't have been a problem as my opponent was running Christianity. Hard to see how she could like him as much as me, since I was running no religion, all the right civics (for ages), resources and tech trades. But it must be the explanation ...

Thanks

 

[Misotu]

Actually .... come to think of it .... I *did* check it because I was trying to work out whether I'd get more votes running Christianity or not running it. Hattie was much keener on me than anyone else. Lincoln had been running confu, but switched to christianity on the turn that the diplo victory came up (sneaky bugger).

How strange. I know I did check it. Based on the diplo screen, I should just have made it ...

Bah!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Zara Yaquob

I read Sun Tzu say he was a good opponent for AP victories (as he starts with a hidden +2 modifier) so threw him in. He was on the other continent and was the last AI I had to get a missionary to. In 870 the missionary arrives and I can't convert. He was in his fave civic Theocracy and therefore I can't get him out and I can't win this game anytime soon. I had christianity in every city on my continent and all the AI on it were friendly, so I would have won easily soon after this.

Zara Yaqob is the 4th best AI opponent for the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory for precisely the reason you quoted (hidden +2 Diplomatic bias/bonus).

For any AI running Theocracy, just move your Missionary to the City you want converted and Gift the Missionary to the AI. The AI almost always converts that City with the gifted Missionary when his turn comes.

I might swap him out for Asoka and try again

Asoka is clearly inferior to Zara Yaqob. Don't switch.

I hadn't read through this thread so interesting to see people chasing Machinery or Metal Casing with the Oracle, do you hope to bulb Theo with a GP afterwards. Machinery might be leaving it too long (ie by the time the GP appears Theology is gone).

Anyway, back to the drawing board.

Build Stonehenge as early as possible to get early GPP points for the Great Prophet. Just be sure to research Meditation early, otherwise the Great Prophet will bulb Meditation rather than Theology.

I used my second Great Prophet to bulb Code of Laws. The third Great Prophet can bulb Civil Service, if one doesn't have Monarchy.

Getting Machinery with The Oracle should be possible, if one researches/bulbs the prerequisites fast enough.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, come to think of it a 2 gem start or something where you can bulb theo off a priest from SH and oracle machinery (would be semi-easy to do this with 2 gems on emperor - I once oracled Divine Right this way), making the remaining tech requirements quite minimal (trade for backfill, just get IW/compass/optics).

I can see how one gets optics in the BCs then or early ADs, you just have to hope gandhi doesn't declare on you . I still can't believe that happened. It's the first time I've seen him choose to do it, and the first time he made someone else capitulate.

 

[Misotu]

The AI will abstain if it has the same relations with both candidates.
I would guess Hatty was also friendly with your opponent in the AP election, right?

OK, I know I sounded a bit dippy on this before. Just lost a game again where Hattie abstained on +8. Her relations with my rival were -1.

I reckon it's something to do with whether you're running a different religion? If you're not in any religion, she will vote for you on +7 upwards I think ...

Could this be it?

 

[Ozbenno]

Build Stonehenge as early as possible to get early GPP points for the Great Prophet. Just be sure to research Meditation early, otherwise the Great Prophet will bulb Meditation rather than Theology.

I used my second Great Prophet to bulb Code of Laws. The third Great Prophet can bulb Civil Service, if one doesn't have Monarchy.

Getting Machinery with The Oracle should be possible, if one researches/bulbs the prerequisites fast enough.

Sun Tzu Wu

In this game wouldn't using the 2nd Prophet for a Christian Shrine be better? In my (as yet unfinished) game, the Christian shrine kept me +ve cash flow at 100% research even with 7 cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In this game wouldn't using the 2nd Prophet for a Christian Shrine be better? In my (as yet unfinished) game, the Christian shrine kept me +ve cash flow at 100% research even with 7 cities.

Shrines are double edged swords in AP games because they have a chance of spreading AP religion to cities you might not want.

I'd much rather just ASAP theo then get optics in a game like this, and that's what the earliest times seem to be doing.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In this game wouldn't using the 2nd Prophet for a Christian Shrine be better? In my (as yet unfinished) game, the Christian shrine kept me +ve cash flow at 100% research even with 7 cities.

You may need a second Religion to convert the capitals of your AI opponents who have no Religions at all. That is why you want to found Confucianism. There is also the possibility of running numerous Scientists and generating Great Scientists to bulb Metal Casting, Compass, and Optics. I'll assume The Oracle will be used for Machinery, but it could be used for any one of the previous three as well.

If you get an event to spread the AP Religion, don't do it, for the same reason you don't want an AP Religious Shrine.

Choose to build a non-AP Religious Shrine if you really want a Shrine.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ZPV]

There is also the possibility of running numerous Scientists and generating Great Scientists to bulb Metal Casting, Compass, and Optics. I'll assume The Oracle will be used for Machinery, but it could be used for any one of the previous three as well.

This is close to what my strategy is going to be - ReX quickly to three cities, build Stonehenge and then the Oracle for Machinery, run scientists in cities #2 and 3 to generate 2 GSs, lightbulb Compass and Optics, then run a priest in the capital to finish the GPro to lightbulb Theology. Caravels and missionaries will be whipped, of course, and forests will be chopped while building research prior to Theology.

I haven't played any games yet, but I think something like 500BC or even earlier should be quite possible. Perhaps I am just crazy

I looked at lightbulbing MC with a GS, but it seems impossible without researching Calendar.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I looked at lightbulbing MC with a GS, but it seems impossible without researching Calendar.

Looks like Aesthetics is also required, before bulbing Metal Casting with a Great Scientist. Thus, this isn't really a viable option at all.

Bulb Metal Casting with a Great Merchant:

Build The Temple of Artemis and hope for a Great Merchant. Or just run Caste System and run a bunch of Merchants to generate a Great Merchant. The latter seems feasible to do.

Quite likely you will have to settle for researching Metal Casting, bulbing both Compass and Optics with a Great Scientist each and use The Oracle for Machinery. And of course a Great Prophet for bulbing Theology sooner rather than later, I would think.

Good luck!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ianw1610]

Quite likely you will have to settle for researching Metal Casting, bulbing both Compass and Optics with a Great Scientist each and use The Oracle for Machinery. And of course a Great Prophet for bulbing Theology sooner rather than later, I would think.

I'm not sure if this would be easy to perform, in practice. To bulb Theology, Meditation needs to be researched (otherwise the Prophet would try to bulb it)... however the act of researching Meditation would in turn switch the preference of the Scientist to bulbing Philosophy, ahead of Compass and Optics - the only way to prevent this is to avoid Code of Laws, which means no Caste System. Furthermore, the existence of Theology would lead the Scientist to prefer Paper, ahead of Compass (although below Optics).

Here is a link to the Great People Tech Preferences Thread... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

In my (as yet unfinished) game, the Christian shrine kept me +ve cash flow at 100% research even with 7 cities.

What is fascinating here is the disparity in strategy between different players. Both Misotu and myself play as minimalists, setting up 2 (maximum 3) cities, versus the 7-city approach noted above.

Only 2 more days until Denniz publishes the "half-time update" (list of finish dates submitted so far). The two minimalists are in positions 1 and 2 right now (Misotu #1, myself #2)...

 

[Ozbenno]

Well I gifted my missionary to Zara and won 2-3 turns later in 920AD. From what I can see from the thread 685AD is the fastest date (anyone is letting on to) so not bad. I didn't use map finder for this game just regnerated a couple of times until I had an OK position (no gold or gems for me), so I'll see hiow much I can shave off the date with a killer start and more idea what I should be doing (ie Oracling MC or Machinery and bulbing Theology)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm not sure if this would be easy to perform, in practice. To bulb Theology, Meditation needs to be researched (otherwise the Prophet would try to bulb it)... however the act of researching Meditation would in turn switch the preference of the Scientist to bulbing Philosophy, ahead of Compass and Optics - the only way to prevent this is to avoid Code of Laws, which means no Caste System. Furthermore, the existence of Theology would lead the Scientist to prefer Paper, ahead of Compass (although below Optics).

Thanks for the correction with regard to when Theology must be bulbed. It has to occur after Optics is bulbed. And the correction that Code of Laws can't be bulbed/researched and thus Caste System can't be used.

However, the plan can be executed with fast researching and well timed generation of two Great Scientists. Given that Sitting Bull has starting Techs of Fishing and Agriculture, it shouldn't be difficult getting two cities with enough food to support the generation of two Great Scientists. They will cost 150 GPP and 300 GPP respectively. Also, Sitting Bull with the Philosophical trait could be running two Scientists in each of two Cities, earning 2 (# of Sci.) * 3 (GPP) * 2 (Philo. trait) = 12 GPP/turn or 300 / 12 = 25 turns for the 2nd Great Scientist. So, the Great Scientists can be generated within about 13 + 25 turns after the Libraries are built. To avoid wasting GPPs, I'd suggest that both Great Scientists be built in the same City, thus clearly taking just 13 + 25 = 38 turns, assuming 2 Scientists are hired in nearly all 38 turns. Generation of the Great Prophet should occur after the two Great Scientists, otherwise generating the two Great Scientists would take significantly more turns, worse case, 25 + 38 = 63 turns. With Writing researched and a Library built early enough, even 63 turns to generate two GS plus turns to build a Library could easily lead to a BC win.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Miraculix]

Did anyone succeed to use the Oracle for Machinery yet? In my fastest game so far, I used the Oracle for Metal Casing in turn 91 (1725 BC) and arrived at Machinery in turn 129 (665 BC). In addition to the technologies required for Priesthood/Oracle and Machinery, I had used 14 research turns for Writing (needed for libraries) and "wasted" 9 turns on Masonry and Polytheism which I guess can be researched after Machinery. Even if I postpone Masonry and Polytheism, and research Metal Casing instead of Machinery, it seems difficult to research Metal Casing before turn 110, but in my experience, the AI will typically build the Oracle in turn 100 or so.

A more fundamental question. Is there a trick to build/have more then three missionaries at the same time? This limit of 3 seems to have a heavy impact on the number of turns needed after Optics is researched.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

The only missionary trick is gifting them as soon as they reach AI borders but then you lose control of the city they get used in.