G-Major 43

[ianw1610]

I would really like to know how the AP works, in terms of the vote coming up. There's obviously some sort of pattern, but I have no idea what it is and can't read the code, didn't write the game, so I think we non-techies are at a bit of a disadvantage here

Did anyone ever resolve this question? Is there a guide anywhere in the Reference section at all, concerning the specific number of turns after completion of the AP when the diplo victory option will pop up? Or is it just random??

I'm asking because I just played a game where, by 300AD, I had accomplished everything that is needed... built the AP... spread the AP religion to all 8 rivals... and achieved +8 or more relations with all key voters. But then the game made me wait a whole 350 more years before the diplo victory screen finally popped up. To rub salt into the wound, I came up 1 vote short of the victory target, because some of the fair & forthright trading bonuses had worn off by then...

Did anyone succeed to use the Oracle for Machinery yet?

In the game mentioned above, I self-researched up to Metal Casting in exactly 100 turns (1500BC) and Oracled Machinery on that very same turn. On Emperor level, there the AI tends to complete the Oracle any time between approx turns 80-120, so it is simply a matter of luck as to whether or not the Oracle is still available at the appropriate time...

 

[ianw1610]

Anyway... after my freakish diplo vote incident as noted above, I've just played another game, with a similar strategy... and this time the diplo vote option came up just one turn after my religion spread to the last rival.

So - the vital stats... Machinery slingshot from Oracle on Turn 96... Victory achieved on Turn 199 - 385AD...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The only missionary trick is gifting them as soon as they reach AI borders but then you lose control of the city they get used in.

As you may have noticed, the AI rarely refuses the Gift of a Missionary.

There are two cases to deal with here:

1) You want a High Population City converted to the AP Religion

2) You want a Low Population City converted to the AP Religion

Tactic for #1a) Simply move the AP Missionary to the desired High Population City and immediately Gift the Missionary to the AI. The AI almost always converts the desired City, unless there is a clearly better City to convert in the "opinion" of the AI. This only helps with the 3 Missionary limit if the Missionary had no spare movement left (a gain of 1 turn in building the next AP Missionary).

Tactic for #1b) Simply move the AP Missionary to within 1-2 turns of the desired City. This would be a gain of 1-2 turns in building the next AP Missionary. However, the AI is more likely to convert another High Population City than the desired one (this usually will not be a problem though).

Tactic for #2) I don't think the AI will convert a Low Population City unless it is the only City with 1 existing Religion and maybe not even then. You almost certainly need to do the conversion yourself, otherwise the AI is likely to convert a Higher Population City if Gifted an AP Missionary.

Going back to the original question of how to work around the 3 Missionary limit:

1) The usual tactic of building the maximum number of "AP" Missionaries and sending them to the most distant Civs before starting TAP should help, assuming that bulbing of Theology was delayed after Optics. Thus the necessary ships can be built in time.

2) Staggering near and far AI destinations can help. This tactic using one of the 3 Missionary limit for building AP Missionaries whose destination is the home Continent. The other two of the 3 Missionary limit are shipped over seas.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm asking because I just played a game where, by 300AD, I had accomplished everything that is needed... built the AP... spread the AP religion to all 8 rivals... and achieved +8 or more relations with all key voters. But then the game made me wait a whole 350 more years before the diplo victory screen finally popped up. To rub salt into the wound, I came up 1 vote short of the victory target, because some of the fair & forthright trading bonuses had worn off by then...

You may be running into the 75% vote limitation. The RL DV will never appear as long as you have 75% or more of the AP vote all by yourself. Self voting is no longer possible with the 3.17 patch.

Another loop hole closed by the 3.17 patch is converting to the AP Religion on the turn of the vote to double your vote count; such a Religion change can't affect Diplomacy that determines each AIs vote, since the AIs commit their votes just prior to the beginning of your turn (before the switch to the AP Religion). This may cause an invalidation of the vote, but the game doesn't give a clue as to why the vote was invalidated.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

I'm asking because I just played a game where, by 300AD, I had accomplished everything that is needed... built the AP... spread the AP religion to all 8 rivals... and achieved +8 or more relations with all key voters. But then the game made me wait a whole 350 more years before the diplo victory screen finally popped up.

In my second game, I had the same problem (was at 400AD though). Waited for ages no vote came up (except for AP leader). Then realised that I hadn't found one of the other AI . At least the victory came just a couple of turns after I eventually sent someone over there. It was Zara I forgot about as well, he is the curse of these games for me. So I improved to 760AD but scope for much better time if I can concentrate long enough.

 

[ianw1610]

You may be running into the 75% vote limitation. The RL DV will never appear as long as you have 75% or more of the AP vote all by yourself. Self voting is no longer possible with the 3.17 patch.

Another loop hole closed by the 3.17 patch is converting to the AP Religion on the turn of the vote to double your vote count; such a Religion change can't affect Diplomacy that determines each AIs vote, since the AIs commit their votes just prior to the beginning of your turn (before the switch to the AP Religion). This may cause an invalidation of the vote, but the game doesn't give a clue as to why the vote was invalidated.

Sun Tzu Wu

I myself had just 2 cities at that time, and held around 10% of the votes. One of my AI rivals - Lincoln - had around 80% of the votes, as the AP religion spread to all of his cities very quickly. However, Lincoln never switched to the AP religion, so could not have self-voted himself as the Religious Diplomatic winner.

I was aware of the 3.17 patch preventing a Religious victory vote when the player holds more than 75% of the votes, but I wasn't aware that the same restriction applies when a non-eligible AI rival holds more than 75%...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I myself had just 2 cities at that time, and held around 10% of the votes. One of my AI rivals - Lincoln - had around 80% of the votes, as the AP religion spread to all of his cities very quickly. However, Lincoln never switched to the AP religion, so could not have self-voted himself as the Religious Diplomatic winner.

I was aware of the 3.17 patch preventing a Religious victory vote when the player holds more than 75% of the votes, but I wasn't aware that the same restriction applies when a non-eligible AI rival holds more than 75%...

Yes, the rules that apply to the Player also apply to each AI, even when it doesn't make sense such as in the situation described above.

Assuming you were aware of what was happening and knew that would pause all TAP resolutions and elections, you probably would have converted a large city of an AI sure to vote for you to decrease the 75+ % TAP vote share of the problem AI well below 75%.

One of my guidelines for winning the RL DV is to never allow oneself or any AI have more than 50% of the TAP vote. Sometime, the TAP Religion is spread very quickly by some AIs and also spread naturally (when the AI is slow to spread his own State Religion). Thus, assume the worst case that AIs that have the TAP Religion in a large City could have TAP Religion spread to all their Cities in just a few turns, especially if the TAP Religious Shrine is built or the Religious Spread Event is accepted (usually you will never want either one).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[KingMorgan]

I know i'm late to the party, iirc Hemispheres map will never have galley access between continents.

Seems like there are some very good finishes already posted, extra challanging!!

 

[Misotu]

I did have one map once that connected with galleys. Not in this Gauntlet, but a Deity diplomatic game a little while ago. I've never seen it again - a fluke I suppose. Definitely not to be relied on, strategy-wise

 

[Conquistador 63]

Sometime, the TAP Religion is spread very quickly by some AIs and also spread naturally (when the AI is slow to spread his own State Religion).

I aborted my only run at this gauntlet. I shared continent with Buddhist Hatty and other 3 Hindu friends (I was Hindu after completing Christian AP). I was a few turns away from Optics, but as soon as I infected Hatty's smallest city with Christianity she promptly spreaded it to all of her other cities which already had Buddhism! Soon she had more votes than me and the hindu gang combined, so no chance to win. Maybe Civ4 AI isn't completely dumb after all?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I aborted my only run at this gauntlet. I shared continent with Buddhist Hatty and other 3 Hindu friends (I was Hindu after completing Christian AP). I was a few turns away from Optics, but as soon as I infected Hatty's smallest city with Christianity she promptly spreaded it to all of her other cities which already had Buddhism! Soon she had more votes than me and the hindu gang combined, so no chance to win. Maybe Civ4 AI isn't completely dumb after all?

Hatshepsut will spread any Religion quickly. With her favorite civic being Organized Religion you will get up to +4 Diplomacy when you are both running this Civic. She is a great ally in a RL DV, but can be a pain in situations such as the one mentioned above.

It is usually best to convert to No State Religion. If running OR, Hatshepsut will vote for your RL DV, eventually.

In my opinion, Hatshepsut is the 2nd best AI to have in a RL DV game. In other words, she is the 2nd easiest AI to get a high enough Diplomacy value that she is almost certainly to vote for your RL DV!

Trying to gain Diplomatic favor by converting to the dominant Religion will usually fail, unless there are no competing Religions (which in this case there were).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[DJMGator13]

It is usually best to convert to No State Religion. If running OR, Hatshepsut will vote for your RL DV, eventually.

Does this switch erase the associated -3 diplo hit for being in a different religion? In my attempts so far I'm only getting the AI's up to about +8.

On the plus side I did pull off Machinery from the Oracle (turn 96) in one of my attempts, but got beat to Theo in that game while I was finishing up Optics.

Keep the tips coming

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Does this switch erase the associated -3 diplo hit for being in a different religion?

When you switch to (or are running) No State Religion, you will have neither positive or negative Diplomacy with regard to Religion. So, yes, if you had a -3 Diplomacy for having the wrong State Religion (from the perspective of the AI), after converting to No State Religion, the -3 Diplomacy due to wrong State Religion disappears immediately upon switching (while in Anarchy for non-Spiritual Leaders).

In my attempts so far I'm only getting the AI's up to about +8.

+8 Diplomacy Visible is enough for all AIs, except those with a hidden -1 and you should not be using any of those war-alike AIs for RL DV anyway.

On the plus side I did pull off Machinery from the Oracle (turn 96) in one of my attempts, but got beat to Theo in that game while I was finishing up Optics.

Are you generating at least one Great Scientist and using him to bulb Optics? Also, generating a Great Prophet to bulb Theology? Sounds like you were researching Optics.

Has anyone succeeded in generating a second Great Scientist, so that Compass could be bulbed as well?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[DJMGator13]

Are you generating at least one Great Scientist and using him to bulb Optics? Also, generating a Great Prophet to bulb Theology? Sounds like you were researching Optics.

Has anyone succeeded in generating a second Great Scientist, so that Compass could be bulbed as well?

Sun Tzu Wu

This is why I like playing the Gauntlet games it gives you a chance to refine your techniques. I have been researching Optics but can see that a 2 GS approach would indeed be good.

In the game were I got Machinery from the Oracle, I did manage to pop Monarchy from a hut. This allowed me to switch to HR and use cheap warriors for happiness. In that game I could have easily generated the required 3 GPP (1 prophet and 2 scientist).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In the game were I got Machinery from the Oracle, I did manage to pop Monarchy from a hut. This allowed me to switch to HR and use cheap warriors for happiness. In that game I could have easily generated the required 3 GPP (1 prophet and 2 scientist).

Note that it will be easier to generate the two Great Scientists in a City with a Library and the Prophet later probably with 2 GPP from The Oracle and 3 GPP from a Priest via a Temple. Prophet first may not work out. You will probably want to generate the two Great Scientists in the second City built and the Great Prophet in the Capital. Thus, no mixing of the gene pool!

Also, you must bulb the two Great Scientists before bulbing the Great Prophet, because after Theology is completed, a GS will bulb Paper instead of either Compass or Optics.

It is best to have a start with a couple Gems and/or Gold tiles for rapid researching of Techs that aren't bulbed.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[AgedOne]

Note that it will be easier to generate the two Great Scientists in a City with a Library and the Prophet later probably with 2 GPP from The Oracle and 3 GPP from a Priest via a Temple. Prophet first may not work out. You will probably want to generate the two Great Scientists in the second City built and the Great Prophet in the Capital. Thus, no mixing of the gene pool!

I really agree with this. Don't mix the gene pool.
In some attempts at this gauntlet, I followed a strategy of pursuing stonehenge early on to generate a Gt Prof. While this works a treat for generating the guy himself and bulbing Theology, it alters the odds of generating Gt Scientists later so badly that you can never get it back again in a short game like this.
Mind you, I may be biased in my view on this due to the number of times I had a Gt Prof pop instead of a Gt Sci (later in the game when I wanted one), even when the odds were 80% plus. <snarl>

Also, you must bulb the two Great Scientists before bulbing the Great Prophet, because after Theology is completed, a GS will bulb Paper instead of either Compass or Optics.

I think it's Code of Laws that you have to be careful about getting before you use your GS's.
After finishing the AP (so obviously had Theology), I have managed to bulb both Optics and then Paper with GS. Definitely!

AgedOne

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I think it's Code of Laws that you have to be careful about getting before you use your GS's.
After finishing the AP (so obviously had Theology), I have managed to bulb both Optics and then Paper with GS. Definitely!

Sorry, I didn't state the GS/GP required bulbing order correctly. The first Great Scientist must bulb Compass before the Great Prophet is used to bulb Theocracy. Otherwise the first Scientist will bulb Paper instead of Compass.

You are also right about not wanting Code of Laws before bulbing either Great Scientist. Otherwise, the first or second Great Scientist will bulb Philosophy instead of Compass or Optics as desired.

The second Scientist will bulb Optics with Theology already completed. In fact as you stated, you definitely can (and want to) complete The Apostolic Palace around the time that Optics is bulbed.

--- After Optics ---

After Optics, a second Great Prophet could bulb Code of Laws after Optics is completed. At this point, Code of Laws can be gifted/traded to get the full +4 fair trading Diplomatic bonus; you may even need the Confucian Religion is provides to rush Confucian Missionaries to the Capitals of Civs lacking a Religion prior to converting one of their Cities to the AP Religion (usually Christinity).

In the turn that Optics is bulbed upgrade your three Triremes to Caravels and ship your waiting Christian Missionaries to the other continent. Quickly settle at least one of the Missionaries to build the next and return all Caravels to ship more Missionaries.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Coilean]

What's the earliest date anyone has gotten optics? 5 BC is the best I have managed, using oracle->MC, GS->compass, GP->theology, GS->optics. That game was ruined by being stuck with only zara and cathy on my continent, neither of whom had a religion to spread, so zara picked up my christianity and took over a huge vote lead in the christian AP from me.

I've tried doing an oracle sling to machinery, but just can't seem to grab MC quick enough before the AI swipes the oracle from me, sometimes by 1800bc or even earlier.

 

[Misotu]

On my better games, I get Optics in the 400BC area. But in terms of the final date, so much depends on the map - how close the other continent is, and where the cities of the remaining AI are placed.

 

[AgedOne]

What's the earliest date anyone has gotten optics?

I just checked back through my autologs. I have one 95BC, but that's significantly earlier than my next best - 70AD.

400BC . That's turn 146/147. I'd still be working on Machinery.

That game was ruined by being stuck with only zara and cathy on my continent, neither of whom had a religion to spread, so zara picked up my christianity and took over a huge vote lead in the christian AP from me.

Achk! Tell me about it. That's definitely going to be in my book "13 things that totally wreck your attempts at religious victories".

I had one a couple of days ago where Liz (mutter, growl) switched to christanity late on, sat there until she'd thoroughly ruined my chances of a fast victory, and then calmly switched away again allowing me to win. Even voted for me! (mutter, mutter)

...before the AI swipes the oracle from me, sometimes by 1800bc or even earlier.

I've seen some extremely irritating AI grab the Oracle as early as 1950BC (turn 82).
On the other hand, I've (once) got it myself as late as turn 115 (1125BC).
Normally, I reckon I have to have it by turn 95 (1625BC) to have a better-than-even chance.