If your game goes 1000 AD, you will probably need more than four cities for the reasons you mentioned. If win earlier than 1000 AD, four cities will probably be enough. Make sure you work as many farms as you can after you build the UN.
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G-Minor 119
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If your game goes 1000 AD, you will probably need more than four cities for the reasons you mentioned. If win earlier than 1000 AD, four cities will probably be enough. Make sure you work as many farms as you can after you build the UN.
Manco Capac
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Thanks everyone for the input to my questions and 'twas interesting to see mitigated conclusions as the discussions were unfolding. Unfortunately, I was quite busy recently and didn't appropriately show my gratitude by simply replying. 
Ouch! People are progressing fast this time. So I did one more attempt, ignoring all comments about maximising AI's and Oracling CS for the last time just to see if it worths to continue on the way of grabbing-all-huts-just-for-me...and I did it on another wacky map (that no one shows interest like rainforest mapscript): Oasis mapscript. I know, I know, why Oasis! Simply because it happens sometimes there is a higher concentration of resources and I wanted to try such rare case...and there is an assured four rivers. Of course I did encouter problems: horrible forest sprawling, far away marble, no stone map, etc.
I won in 620 AD with Lizzy. Much progress, but what killed me was the lack of forest and the total lack of stone on the entire map. Those two would've shaved at least 10 turns to my victory date. At least luck was at my side:
2 settlers, 1 worker, popped Writing at 3600 BC, got later BW and Horseback Riding (so useless
).
I am surprised I'm still third: Ozbenno, AAA, Shulec and Cas are ahead of me...someone must've forgot to submit.
I think you forgot one mention.
Cold Climate to squeeze the AI's.
Ouch! People are progressing fast this time. So I did one more attempt, ignoring all comments about maximising AI's and Oracling CS for the last time just to see if it worths to continue on the way of grabbing-all-huts-just-for-me...and I did it on another wacky map (that no one shows interest like rainforest mapscript): Oasis mapscript. I know, I know, why Oasis! Simply because it happens sometimes there is a higher concentration of resources and I wanted to try such rare case...and there is an assured four rivers. Of course I did encouter problems: horrible forest sprawling, far away marble, no stone map, etc.
I won in 620 AD with Lizzy. Much progress, but what killed me was the lack of forest and the total lack of stone on the entire map. Those two would've shaved at least 10 turns to my victory date. At least luck was at my side:
2 settlers, 1 worker, popped Writing at 3600 BC, got later BW and Horseback Riding (so useless
). Spoiler :
I am surprised I'm still third: Ozbenno, AAA, Shulec and Cas are ahead of me...someone must've forgot to submit.
I think you forgot one mention.
Cold Climate to squeeze the AI's.
Man... you guys are doing to Civ4 what I did to Civ1, before I discovered sequels (Civ4 was released before I'd moved from Civ1). Optimizing.
Frankly, I don't have the drive to join you, but I do appreciate you guys setting the standard, and learning from you. I'll never have the patience to do what needs to be done to give you a challenge, but its nice to know how the ideal game is played.
I'm sp much in awe, I'm going to go play some Civ5 instead.
Frankly, I don't have the drive to join you, but I do appreciate you guys setting the standard, and learning from you. I'll never have the patience to do what needs to be done to give you a challenge, but its nice to know how the ideal game is played.
I'm sp much in awe, I'm going to go play some Civ5 instead.
I'm sp much in awe, I'm going to go play some Civ5 instead.
We'll see you when you come back!
If you love it, good for you!
Bleh. Had a BC game in hand if I could just pop a #%&ing GE @ 45% chance.
Ended up 300AD again. Had to build a 5th city, more workers, and chop every forest in sight around the new city. Took ~12-15 turns extra.
Could have been 250AD if I had remembered to go US to rush-buy after using the GM from Economics on a trade mission. But I tend to forget those things when I start looking like this:
I've got my strat down pretty good now, but it still takes popping at least 2 settlers and 1 worker early from huts...and that doesn't happen very often. Techs help...so does gold since I'm going for 4 cities asap. But settlers from huts are the key to BC.
cas
Ended up 300AD again. Had to build a 5th city, more workers, and chop every forest in sight around the new city. Took ~12-15 turns extra.
Could have been 250AD if I had remembered to go US to rush-buy after using the GM from Economics on a trade mission. But I tend to forget those things when I start looking like this:
I've got my strat down pretty good now, but it still takes popping at least 2 settlers and 1 worker early from huts...and that doesn't happen very often. Techs help...so does gold since I'm going for 4 cities asap. But settlers from huts are the key to BC.
cas
If you can rush a neighbor and pop two settlers, that would go along way to a BC victory.
Oh, yes...I'm going a little different route than everyone else and doing minimum opponents on boreal and popping more huts. I tried 3 AI on boreal...rushing the nearest AI, but that just cuts down on huts and the nearest opponent can still be a long ways off with a crappy city. Boreal is very random on the capital quality.
I tried 4 opponents on a crowded map (terra) with the 2 AI rush. I agree that method is more consistent for sub 500AD...but BC seemed out of reach. I may try that again over the weekend.
cas
Walter_Wolf
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Hmm
What would happen if you kill two AI's ?
Don't you need someone to vote for you?
The second best by score (assuming you are the 1st) usually votes for himself.
or ... you mean rush = vassalize?
What would happen if you kill two AI's ?
Don't you need someone to vote for you?
The second best by score (assuming you are the 1st) usually votes for himself.
or ... you mean rush = vassalize?
rush = kill
when i play with 2 AI, I just play peaceful the whole game and don't rush...which is why settlers from huts are essential to a good date.
cas
AgedOne
Emperor
Oh Yes! (Wail Wail. Gnash)
Or it can give someone like me an opportunity to show just how mediocrely they can play, and end up with an 1100AD win
.Yes, this happened last night. I was actually playing because I had to see how possible it was to walk into an undefended capital city - like you were saying in an earlier post.
I tried a couple of times, but each time found it was turn 6 before I could declare war and there was a warrior defending - and both times I lost.
The next attempt, I popped a hut which was right where I was going to walk, and out came a settler! Then I continued in a beeline for the nearest AI with my warrior, but used my settler for a quick bit of exploration before deciding where to settle. A couple of turns on, the settler popped a hut, and out came another settler!!
The attack on Hatshepsut went the way of my earlier efforts, unfortunately, but I wasn't abandoning this one - not with 2 settlers on my hands. Not long after settling my 2 cities, I found I had horses beside one - so I built a couple of chariots and took Thebes.
So there I was with 4 cities. Actually, it was about 40 turns in by then, but it was still a very fine start.
The main troubles I had were (a) having too many cities before I could build courthouses, resulting in dropping my tech rate to 50% at a crucial time, and (b) forgetting all of the good things I had learned about getting a fast diplo win - apart from building the 4 libraries before I had Education, the one thing I did well.
I don't often have this, but I really wanted to go back and play this one through again from turn 40. I don't think I could do as poorly again.
Oh Yes! (Wail Wail. Gnash)
Or it can give someone like me an opportunity to show just how mediocrely they can play, and end up with an 1100AD win
Yes, this happened last night. I was actually playing because I had to see how possible it was to walk into an undefended capital city - like you were saying in an earlier post.
I tried a couple of times, but each time found it was turn 6 before I could declare war and there was a warrior defending - and both times I lost.
The next attempt, I popped a hut which was right where I was going to walk, and out came a settler! Then I continued in a beeline for the nearest AI with my warrior, but used my settler for a quick bit of exploration before deciding where to settle. A couple of turns on, the settler popped a hut, and out came another settler!!
The attack on Hatshepsut went the way of my earlier efforts, unfortunately, but I wasn't abandoning this one - not with 2 settlers on my hands. Not long after settling my 2 cities, I found I had horses beside one - so I built a couple of chariots and took Thebes.
So there I was with 4 cities. Actually, it was about 40 turns in by then, but it was still a very fine start.
The main troubles I had were (a) having too many cities before I could build courthouses, resulting in dropping my tech rate to 50% at a crucial time, and (b) forgetting all of the good things I had learned about getting a fast diplo win - apart from building the 4 libraries before I had Education, the one thing I did well.
I don't often have this, but I really wanted to go back and play this one through again from turn 40. I don't think I could do as poorly again.
If you want to post your save, I will play it with you.
I would not build courthouses either. I try to settle relatively close to my capitol.
AgedOne
Emperor
That's a very intriguing offer, and I would be very interested to see what you make of the game. However, the big problem is that I don't have a save near enough to turn 40.
I first stopped at turn 100, which is after I had been through most of the troubles I described. I have attached that save, to see if you can retrieve anything from the situation at 375BC.
Out of interest, I have also attached the starting save. I didn't think it would work out the way it did originally, but if you move the warrior SW, found London on the spot, pop the hut next turn and it seems to come up settler. Then run the settler NW and you will soon see the next hut. That also pops a settler.
View attachment AgedOne_4000-BC_May-04-2011_18-50-15.CivBeyondSwordSave
View attachment AgedOne BC-0375.CivBeyondSwordSave
[Obviously, I am mentally prepared for your exasperation when you see some of the things that I have done.
I often speak with Misotu offline, so I am used to that kind of reaction]Yea. Finally. 50BC win. Same settings as before. Pericles, boreal, low sea, tropical, only 2 AI (Mansa / Joao), no barbs, no events.
Not a great map, but decent. No good spot for the 4th city (Thebes) so I just used it to get the 4th university for Oxford and chop ~8 Tao missionaries so Joao and I could have the same religion for the vote. Would much rather have a good city spot to generate another 1-2 GS at some point during the game.
Popped 2 settlers, 1 worker, Aesthetics (worthless) and a couple of other minor techs, gold, and maybe a scout. Can't remember exactly on the techs, but it was nothing spectacular.
Oracle -> Radio (took a risk Mansa wouldn't build it before me since he didn't have marble. Joao didn't even have Priesthood yet. heh.)
Lib -> Mass Media
1GS - academy in Athens
1GS - bulb most of Education
1GS - bulb PrintPress
1GS - bulb most of Astro
1GS - bulb ~1600 beakers Physics
2GS - bulb ~3200 beakers Electricity (1 free from Physics)
1 GE - partial rush UN ~760 hammers. Popped with about 25% chance somewhere in the Physcis/Electricity timeframe...makes up for all the other times, I guess.
So I was short 1-2 GS for Physics/Elec because my 4th city was not generating GS...but it's hard to get everything you need when you shrink the timeline to BC win.
Still beatable with a better map (4th city) and a little better luck on huts (better techs or another settler/worker combo).
Done with this one...even if AAA turns in a 75BC win to irk me. My goal was a BC victory, not first place.
cas
Not a great map, but decent. No good spot for the 4th city (Thebes) so I just used it to get the 4th university for Oxford and chop ~8 Tao missionaries so Joao and I could have the same religion for the vote. Would much rather have a good city spot to generate another 1-2 GS at some point during the game.
Popped 2 settlers, 1 worker, Aesthetics (worthless) and a couple of other minor techs, gold, and maybe a scout. Can't remember exactly on the techs, but it was nothing spectacular.
Oracle -> Radio (took a risk Mansa wouldn't build it before me since he didn't have marble. Joao didn't even have Priesthood yet. heh.)
Lib -> Mass Media
1GS - academy in Athens
1GS - bulb most of Education
1GS - bulb PrintPress
1GS - bulb most of Astro
1GS - bulb ~1600 beakers Physics
2GS - bulb ~3200 beakers Electricity (1 free from Physics)
1 GE - partial rush UN ~760 hammers. Popped with about 25% chance somewhere in the Physcis/Electricity timeframe...makes up for all the other times, I guess.
So I was short 1-2 GS for Physics/Elec because my 4th city was not generating GS...but it's hard to get everything you need when you shrink the timeline to BC win.
Still beatable with a better map (4th city) and a little better luck on huts (better techs or another settler/worker combo).
Done with this one...even if AAA turns in a 75BC win to irk me.
My goal was a BC victory, not first place.cas
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Manco Capac
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:suicide:
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@AgedOne
I know
...I'm not in position to give advices, but it's hard to resist this time. 1) I think the starting position sucks. Better with two high commerce tiles. Food-wise, it's correct. Even more, none of your cities are food rich.
2) As you, I would go to the next map seeing failing incursion in egyptian territory. It's very powerful to take a capital city at turn 4-5. The best I obtained was a turn-2-incursion (though that kind of start bugs mapfinder like in Warlord version).
3) Get Alpha asap. The best I got was before 3000 BC and it's very cool to backfill fast all necessary worker techs and let the AI discovers all ancient times techs.
For example, AH (okay that one is justified for Writing), Mysticism, Meditation/Polytheism and BW will be yours without spending turns on it. Mansa Musa is a must then.
4) A shame the financial trait is wasted, but can't be helping with the lack of rivers.
5) Why SH? Furthermore, some buildings seem unnecessary, like those monasteries. For better ratio than this 10%
, better build research or wealth. It would have been possible by teching Alpha fast, then Currency for expansion recovery. 6) Early Currency for total economic control.
7) Wasted Great Peoples (Great Prophet and Great Merchant (although I understand your point to spawn it for instantaneous gold)) If other cities were more food-wise, you would've outsmarted your capital Great Prophet for a Great Scientist instead.
Hmmm...that's a side-effect of early Oracle, I see.
8) Late Pyramids.
9) You play too fast. Why the hurry.
10) I still think early Alpha and Currency is the key for total economic control, although I may be wrong.
O well, these were my shallow insights.
AgedOne
Emperor
:suicide:
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@AgedOne
I know
1) I think the starting position sucks. Better with two high commerce tiles. Food-wise, it's correct. Even more, none of your cities are food rich.
2) As you, I would go to the next map seeing failing incursion in egyptian territory. It's very powerful to take a capital city at turn 4-5. The best I obtained was a turn-2-incursion (though that kind of start bugs mapfinder like in Warlord version).
3) Get Alpha asap. The best I got was before 3000 BC and it's very cool to backfill fast all necessary worker techs and let the AI discovers all ancient times techs.
For example, AH (okay that one is justified for Writing), Mysticism, Meditation/Polytheism and BW will be yours without spending turns on it. Mansa Musa is a must then.
4) A shame the financial trait is wasted, but can't be helping with the lack of rivers.
5) Why SH? Furthermore, some buildings seem unnecessary, like those monasteries. For better ratio than this 10%
6) Early Currency for total economic control.
7) Wasted Great Peoples (Great Prophet and Great Merchant (although I understand your point to spawn it for instantaneous gold)) If other cities were more food-wise, you would've outsmarted your capital Great Prophet for a Great Scientist instead.
Hmmm...that's a side-effect of early Oracle, I see.
8) Late Pyramids.
9) You play too fast. Why the hurry.
10) I still think early Alpha and Currency is the key for total economic control, although I may be wrong.
O well, these were my shallow insights.
Tachywaxon! Please, understand that this wasn't one of my 'normal' attempts, and I wasn't posting the saves for a general critique. I was posting to berate myself for having played so badly from a very surprising start.
It was only when shulec asked if it was possible to play it through with me from turn 40 that I popped the saves up here.
What was very evident to me was that I was playing with only half my mind on the game, very fast, making mistakes. It was a waste.
So I think we can discount the 'playing too fast' and 'why use that rubbish start' comments as being untypical and a feature of the strange situation I was in.
Some useful comments there though, that I should concentrate on in my more 'mainstream' attempts:
3) Alpha earlier. Interesting! My priorities have been food improvements first, Writing, then to Priesthood, CoL and Math so that I can take CS from Oracle. Finally I go for Alpha and Currency. Can I risk early Alpha and trade for Priesthood but still get the O first? I'll think about it.
5) Did I build SH? I'm puzzled, as I never normally even start it. Possibly I got into a mess early on with nothing useful to build. Very untypical of my games, anyway.
7) Yes. I normally try to get all GS, one GE, maybe one GM is OK if it allows me to leave tech at 100%. This game that all went to pot! Couldn't get the GS when I needed them.
8) I agree. If you are going to build the Pyramids, it should be as soon as you can manage it. Probably after the Library, Oracle in the capital. I'll do better next time!
In my attempts where I get a settler in turns 1-4, I recommend changing your rush strategy and build a warrior ASAP for a two warrior rush. This should allow you to take the capitol. Hut hunting is less important after this point.
My comments on you 375 BC save:
1. I think you built to many buildings. I build libraries, universities, one forge, one aqueduct, granaries, +/- monuments.
2. You should have founded York to get the pigs in the BFC.
Manco Capac
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Look at the newbie...I AM!!!
Seems good isn't it?
By killing Lincoln (couldn't resist because of gems), I've lost my last chance to get techs from the AI's, simply Gandhi.
Frankly, how the "We don't want to start trading this technology just yet" still in work when there is no remaining civs, except me. He has Polytheism, Masonry, Monotheism and I want them. Liberate bad situated cities for getting friendly status...hell no...don't wanna put 200 hammers for Gandhi.
Any suggestions...
EDIT:
A Settler at turn 43...come on! I needed cash! What to do? Settle near stone for early mids or give a city to this egocentric Gandhi who doesn't even want to share his secrets.
Seems good isn't it?
Spoiler :
By killing Lincoln (couldn't resist because of gems), I've lost my last chance to get techs from the AI's, simply Gandhi.
Frankly, how the "We don't want to start trading this technology just yet" still in work when there is no remaining civs, except me. He has Polytheism, Masonry, Monotheism and I want them. Liberate bad situated cities for getting friendly status...hell no...don't wanna put 200 hammers for Gandhi.
Any suggestions...
EDIT:
Spoiler :
A Settler at turn 43...come on! I needed cash!
What to do? Settle near stone for early mids or give a city to this egocentric Gandhi who doesn't even want to share his secrets.
How will you get a diplomacy vote? You need someone to vote for you.
Manco Capac
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I've read somewhere it is possible when there are two remaining civs, the highest populated wins. It wasn't an article, just a off-topic comment in a civ5 thread about a bug in DV saying it was possible to win in civ4 with two remaining civs. I put my faith in that comment...hope I didn't make any mistake.
Perhaps, I should've delved into articles to find an official answer.
EDIT: Shulec, assure me it is a experimental truth what you said, I won't continue a failed (in advance) game.
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