G-Minor 156

Ozbenno

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[img=right]http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gif[/img]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

[size=+1](*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
[/size]​

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Religious (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Deity
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Small
  • Map Type: Any
  • Speed: Quick
  • Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
  • Civ: Any
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: 3.19.003
  • Date: 10th to 25th November 2012
Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
A couple of reasons for this one...

1) Not sure if anyone noticed but the last 9 gauntlets have run up the difficulty levels from Settler to Deity in turn

2) Part of the ongoing Inca discussion was that they could not be beaten for earliest date on Deity across all victories, chance to disprove that claim!!
 
2) Part of the ongoing Inca discussion was that they could not be beaten for earliest date on Deity across all victories, chance to disprove that claim!!

And to make it more difficult to beat the Inca, you can try without huts! ;)
 
It's a shame you don't get a couple gold in the bank when you play with huts off. That's going to eat into the research rate a bit. So even if the Inca are not beaten in this gauntlet, it doesn't prove they can't be.
 
The 1060 BC Inca game I just posted is very beatable even without huts. I got Writing turn 22 (without any free tech that would help get there). That allows +1 Open Borders on turn 47 for a win on 48 (1120 BC). (I forgot to open borders until turn 23 :blush: which delayed my win)

Non Inca civs could get Writing even sooner.

Or just forget about +1 Open Borders and get votes some other way (shared religion? shared war? etc.)
 
The real disadvantage is that you will never be able to take an AI city with warriors. Therefore, you will not be able to do multiple warrior steals and then later get open borders to spread your religion. An infected city gift requires too many hammers that aren't available for a competitive date.

A determined individual can possibly beat 1060 BC. If and when that happens, an Inca game will no doubt be able to top it.

Ultimately, this gives STW and WastinTime a chance to square of on equal ground. Let's see who can win in this fair matchup!
 
I see no point in competing in this Gauntlet. It is already pointless to compete in the Hall of Fame with anything other than the Inca Empire. The Inca Empire has always been a legal exploit. Otherwise, why ban it from HoF Gauntlets, HoF Elite Quatromasters or HoF Challenges?

We are only now seeing significant proof of the Inca Empire's dominance in the Deity tables. Don't fool yourself into thinking the Inca Empire is limited to certain map sizes, speeds or victory conditions. A well executed Quechua rush can easily eliminate several AIs on Monarch to Deity games (where the AI defends with Archers early on). Furthermore, individual Quechua units can steal Workers/Settlers from all the remaining AIs, crippling them so much they are no longer a threat (An unpromoted Quechua C1 has a 86+% chance of killing an Archer escort of a Worker/Settler without defensive terrain). AIs counter attacking with Archers would be committing simple suicide and I've never seen them do it. With the power of conquered cities and the resulting war success, the surviving AIs will pay dearly for peace with the Inca Empire. When well played, the Inca Empire simply can't lose.

Some say I should simply play the Inca Empire to win HoF #1 slots, but I'm not interested in playing (100% of the time) a Civ that is a universally acknowledged legal exploit. I may have been willing to play the Inca Empire in up to 5% of all HoF slots as needed. I few months ago, I really thought that percentage (5) would suffice, but now it seems the percentage is actually in the range of 75% to 100% of all Monarch to Deity tables.

2) Part of the ongoing Inca discussion was that they could not be beaten for earliest date on Deity across all victories, chance to disprove that claim!!

I can't believe you are actually serious about this. Have you looked at the Deity Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory HoF tables recently? Have you examined the new #1 Inca game's HoF logs? The vast majority of Deity RLDV are already Inca wins, all completed within the past two months. As I understand it, the vast majority of those were single attempts to beat the #1 game which were in the vast majority of cases successful. While some of these aren't the best Inca wins possible, it would be foolish to attempt to win with a non-Inca Civ, because that non-Inca win would in turn be easily beat by a subsequent stronger Inca win (probably in the next update).

As you can probably tell, I'm re-evaluating my commitment to play Hall of Fame games, at least with the goal of winning a new #1 position in a HoF slot. As I said before, doing this with the Inca Empire is not the type of challenge I seek and doing so with a non-Inca Empire has become virtually impossible. A challenge ceases to be a "challenge" when the goal has become impossible.

A strong Inca win in Deity Small Quick RLDV would be a turn 33-40 (2020 BC to 1600 BC) win. The current turn 49 (1060 BC) Inca win is far from the strongest one possible. A determined player could post a non-Inca win that beats it, but that would prove nothing; As shulec has already mentioned, it could easily be beat by another, better Inca win (in the above mentioned range, probably in the next update, if not this one).

Just to be clear, I respect the Hall of Fame Staff and their decision on the Inca filter. In hindsight, it may have been better to ban the Inca Empire from the Civilization IV Hall of Fame when it was originally created, but its far too late for anything that drastic now. Sadly, I may have to look for my challenges in areas other than the Civilization IV Hall of "Inca" Fame Tables.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
:confused: Your post is a little off topic. Inca aren't allowed here, and you don't win a gauntlet by getting a #1 HoF spot. I don't see why you would exclude yourself from this. Deity/religious gauntlets have always been one of your 'things'. I would think if you're considering dropping the quest for #1 spots, then surely, you'd jump at this competition.

Sorry, I know this mostly my fault. I didn't intend to deter such a great/active player and lose a great advocate for the HoF. Show us all you still got it!
 
I see no point in competing in this Gauntlet.

That's too bad. :nono: ...I will just hope this is some sort of psychological warfare! :hmm:

Well someone has a good finish up there. It is Neilmeister??? Maybe one of us will put our big boy pants on and take down WastinTime!
 
Not me though i'm going to give this a go as I don't have Bismark for my Deity EQM as yet (although I'll have to figure out a way to win a Deity domination game before this becomes a reality).

What map is best for this and why Bismark (and Qin is the other that has previously been used but I have China)? Is it purely because of Industrious? Why not Ramesses (you want him as opponent I guess)??
 
Ramesses was traditionally an opponent, but he currently holds the Tiny/Quick #1 spot.

Not too long ago, Louis also held a #1 spot briefly 1910 BC Tiny/Marathon

Unfortunately, neither of those guys start with Myst or Mining. And since there are no free techs (huts), I passed on these two, but they could work.

I ruled out Bismarck because he starts with a scout and I want a warrior!

So I played Qin who starts with Mining.

I don't see how you can compete without IND trait.
 
The advantage of Louis (the reason I used him once) was that Creative would get more forests into your culture for more hammers/chop.
However, on Quick speed, borders expand so fast Creative loses its value.

Ramesses and Louis start with Wheel which is nice on Quick to facilitate missionary movement and auto-spread of religion.
 
Ramesses and Louis start with Wheel which is nice on Quick to facilitate missionary movement and auto-spread of religion.

I think having The Wheel is a good first tech. Coupled with Agriculture (France and Egypt) it is good but you have to research Mining.

What about deGaulle? Charismatic could be useful (extra citizen)?

In any case I have France, Egypt and China for Deity EQM, Germany it is!
 
I don't believe my post was at all off-topic, based on the second reason for this Gauntlet given by the Hall of Fame Staff:

A couple of reasons for this one...
...
2) Part of the ongoing Inca discussion was that they could not be beaten for earliest date on Deity across all victories, chance to disprove that claim!!

To be fair, the Gauntlet should be open the Inca Empire. Otherwise, the stated purpose above is a sham, because we know that the current #1 game is a very weak Inca game. It will be relatively easy for a non-Inca Civ to beat it.

Since Gauntlets can't be set up to allow both Inca and non-Inca, the next best thing would be to hold an Inca only Gauntlet next update to see how well this Gauntlet's non-Inca wins hold up to a full-on Inca onslaught. That would be the only fair comparison.

WastinTime, I applaud you for your expose of the Inca exploit! Do not regret it. We all need to follow our paths forward.

Regarding my participation in this Gauntlet. I've gotten bored playing several hundred RLDV games in the past. That doesn't mean I won't submit a few games to demonstrate that I'm still unbeatable in RLDV Gauntlets.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
we know that the current #1 game is a very weak Inca game. It will be relatively easy for a non-Inca Civ to beat it.

I'm a little offended. That game was not weak, certainly not 'very weak'. I'm not sure we're even going to see it beaten, and if we do, it won't be 'relatively easy'. It will require a bit of luck along with some decent skill.

A strong Inca win in Deity Small Quick RLDV would be a turn 33-40 (2020 BC to 1600 BC) win.

Turn 33? I think I can say with certainty that t33 is mathematically impossible. Even on Duel size. You'd have to complete chops for the Oracle and then the AP by turn 24. Then to tech that fast?! And get someone to vote for you?!

Even Turn 40 would require a miracle (I know my turn 43 Tiny/Quick did), but please, prove me wrong. Careful, Inca are addictive :satan:
 
Out of curiosity, why RL DV are often really popular gauntlets?
Strategy-gratifying-wise game, quickieness-wise type of game or is it just to annoy STW (for this case)?

I'm pretty sure it has to do with quick games that fit well with RL duties, but I'm curious.
For some reason, RL DV games are really strenuous. There's certainly a strategy, but the it strains a lot the mapfinder and in one attempt fails, it takes time to retrieve a good map.
 
I think having The Wheel is a good first tech.

I heard once AZ saying he likes having TW from start over for example agri/mining because TW is the most expensive tier 1 tech, if you would have to tech agri and mining you could most probably get it before the typical worker is out (aka 15 turns) and as a bonus TW opens pottery ;-).
 
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