G-Minor 27

[Conquistador 63]

I am not used to long-lasting games, so I could be saying something stupid, but, aren't Rep and Emanc contradictory?
I would use Rep with lots of specialists, so I would then want to run CasteSystem. I would use Emanc for growing lots of cottages, so I would want to run US for the additional hammer.
Maybe the effect of US is not so big and Rep is better even when running only a few specialists????

IMHO Rep was not great but better than anything else. As Alan stated, the additional hammer is next to useless since research is all that matters. The map did not have enough food to support many specialists, so I couldn't fully benefit from Rep (as I wanted to run as many cottages as possible, I farmed just enough tiles to support them). But in my game I did get a quite early SoL (~1250AD?) for a free specialist in each city, so I still got a small benefit.

Which brings me to another point, in a PA the empire-wide world wonders (SoL, Three Gorges, Space Elevator, Eiffel, etc.) are even better as their benefits are shared.

And yes, I did notice a large impact on research in the first few turns of the PA in both games, however IIRC it was more dramatic in the game the PA came late (Robotics from 7 turns to 1 turn?). My guess would be that the AI would have a lot of spare cash so it could run 100% research for a while. Even then it seemed excessive to me.

After that I was getting some 170gpt from him to allow me to run near break-even at 100% research, so his contribution to beaker generation was lower. Not sure if it would be better to keep him at a higher research rate, if the AI techs at a discount. Is it the same discount it gets to build stuff (20% at monarch)?

Another thought is it could be better to get another ally (say, Roosevelt) and still have Mansa as a non-PA tech-trading partner.

 

[jesusin]

And yes, I did notice a large impact on research in the first few turns of the PA in both games, however IIRC it was more dramatic in the game the PA came late (Robotics from 7 turns to 1 turn?). My guess would be that the AI would have a lot of spare cash so it could run 100% research for a while. Even then it seemed excessive to me.

I also feel it is excesive. His gpt available for trade raised from 1gpt (plus 8 gpt he was already paying me) to 35gpt. When I took those 35, another 35gpt became available... And yet he would research the most expensive tech in a single turn. I am sure he wasn't researching a tech a turn before the PA.

 

[WastinTime]

Did you notice an incredible research output from your partner in the initial turns of the PA, like Conquistador63 and me?

I've been playing some Deity space the last few days and I also get 1 turn of super-research when the PA starts. At first I thought it was just that they were about to finish that particular tech, but you can change the tech and it's 1 turn. I bet what they did was just take all the partial research your partner had and give it to you. Then you get to apply it anywhere. If you were to PA right after they just discovered something. You might find that the "bonus" isn't as great. Just a guess though.

 

[WastinTime]

Robotics much earlier to give Space Elevator any chance at all to contribute.

Elevator is useless. In fact, if you waste a GE building it, then it probably cost you a turn because you could have lightbulbed with that GE. The final space part should be built in 1 turn with forest chops, so when teching is done, the ship is done.

So far I am considering this tech order:

Banking -> Economics - Free Market better for beakers than Merc
beeline Democracy - Univ Suffrage, and Emancipation for happiness and want to do triple change of civics for non-Spiritual civs
Replaceable Parts - LM's on forest maps
Scientific Method -> Computers (obsoletes Great Library) - Labs
Chemistry -> Steel - IW (can take over 20 turns to build lab plus IW)
Biology
beeline Assembly Line
beeline Industrialism - Aluminum
beeline Rocketry - Apollo
Satellites - Thrusters
Robotics - Space Elevator
Genetics - build Statis Chamber in IW city before IW builds Engine
beeline Fusion - better after Genetics for simultaneous final parts build
Ecology - Life support in 2nd best production city

I do:

Chemistry -> Steel - IW (so the IW is done in time to start apollo)
Scientific Method -> Computers (obsoletes Great Library) - Labs
beeline Rocketry - Apollo
beeline Industrialism - Aluminum (yes, I build most of apollo w/o alum, but it needs to get started earlier)
Satellites - Thrusters
beeline Fusion - engine is the big part. Needs to start early and the free GE can lightbulb Robotics.
Robotics -
Genetics - build Statis Chamber in IW city before IW builds Engine
Ecology - Life support in 2nd best production city

 

[Dianthus]

This gauntlet has now finished. It was very closely contested, the top 3 all finishing in 1770AD. shyuhe won with a score of 88280, Andrei_V was 2nd with 65248 and Jimmy Thunder 3rd with 41984.

2 new Gauntlets have now started, G-Major 16 and BTS-Beta 4.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Oh wow, top three all tied with the same date!

Good stuff

 

[Alan_of_Dale]

Elevator is useless. In fact, if you waste a GE building it, then it probably cost you a turn because you could have lightbulbed with that GE. The final space part should be built in 1 turn with forest chops, so when teching is done, the ship is done.

Good point about not wasting a GE on Elevator. Usually don't need to getting it in 13 turns or so. Next time will lightbulb GE instead and save a turn. However, I still believe that Elevator is useful and in my space games it does not seem to have hurt me or held back any part build as I try for three big production and two minor production cities. Elevator is a wonder and gives wonder points so if it doesn't hurt building and probably helps building then why not?

I do:

Chemistry -> Steel - IW (so the IW is done in time to start apollo)
Scientific Method -> Computers (obsoletes Great Library) - Labs
beeline Rocketry - Apollo
beeline Industrialism - Aluminum (yes, I build most of apollo w/o alum, but it needs to get started earlier)
Satellites - Thrusters
beeline Fusion - engine is the big part. Needs to start early and the free GE can lightbulb Robotics.
Robotics -
Genetics - build Statis Chamber in IW city before IW builds Engine
Ecology - Life support in 2nd best production city

Getting Fusion earlier means you build engine before Stasis chamber of course in IW city. Seems like you pasted too much of my post. In my Eliz game that is similar to the tech order I used by the way, but I missed the Oracle -> CS slingshot and that crippled me from the start. You didn't mention specifically when you researched Replaceable Parts so assume it is in the Industrialism beeline and after SM. That one I did before SM, but perhaps it's better done after SM -> Computers - labs. However, I find that Genetics/Refrig before beeline Fusion is fine since you can be building a big part in IW city instead of waiting for three techs to research first just to start the engine. The Stasis Chamber completes OK just before Fusion gives you engine and it still can be built in IW city. Probably either way will work though. Getting GE to lightbulb Robotics means you don't build Elevator. I use GE to lightbulb something else, don't recall which it was.

 

[jesusin]

I've been playing some Deity space the last few days and I also get 1 turn of super-research when the PA starts. At first I thought it was just that they were about to finish that particular tech, but you can change the tech and it's 1 turn. I bet what they did was just take all the partial research your partner had and give it to you. Then you get to apply it anywhere. If you were to PA right after they just discovered something. You might find that the "bonus" isn't as great. Just a guess though.

You are probably right, only it is him who keeps the partial research, not you.
On the other hand he took 3 techs in on e turn each and one of them was the most expensive he could have been researching...

 

[jesusin]

This gauntlet has now finished. It was very closely contested, the top 3 all finishing in 1770AD. shyuhe won with a score of 88280, Andrei_V was 2nd with 65248 and Jimmy Thunder 3rd with 41984.

2 new Gauntlets have now started, G-Major 16 and BTS-Beta 4.

Waw. Impressive, guys! Congratulations.

 

[WastinTime]

Elevator is a wonder and gives wonder points so if it doesn't hurt building and probably helps building then why not?


Getting Fusion earlier means you build engine before Stasis chamber of course in IW city. Seems like you pasted too much of my post. In my Eliz game that is similar to the tech order I used by the way, but I missed the Oracle -> CS slingshot and that crippled me from the start. You didn't mention specifically when you researched Replaceable Parts so assume it is in the Industrialism beeline and after SM. That one I did before SM, but perhaps it's better done after SM -> Computers - labs. However, I find that Genetics/Refrig before beeline Fusion is fine since you can be building a big part in IW city instead of waiting for three techs to research first just to start the engine. The Stasis Chamber completes OK just before Fusion gives you engine and it still can be built in IW city. Probably either way will work though. Getting GE to lightbulb Robotics means you don't build Elevator. I use GE to lightbulb something else, don't recall which it was.

You're right that both ways probably work out about the same. On Deity you'd probably lose the race to Fusion however. Your game seems more focused on production than mine usually are. I can never spare a city to build the Space Elev. Naturally, it is a good thing if you can do it without the GE like you said. My games are more focused on research (like Jesusin said, it's 100% of the race, not just 99%) I try not to use my capitol to build things even though it is a good prod. city. That is the main research city, Oxford, etc. and should build research if possible. You may be losing a turn building parts there. I get to Fusion fast enough that there is no waiting around. You still have Plastics, Robo, Refrig, Gen. to research before the IW city has to finish the engine and start stasis. In fact, you have so much time to finish the engine, that another city could take it on and the IW city could do docking bay or some thrusters. Too bad I joined the discussion after the gauntlet. Maybe the next space race will look more appealing. I didn't try this one.

 

[Alan_of_Dale]

You're right that both ways probably work out about the same. On Deity you'd probably lose the race to Fusion however. Your game seems more focused on production than mine usually are. I can never spare a city to build the Space Elev. Naturally, it is a good thing if you can do it without the GE like you said. My games are more focused on research (like Jesusin said, it's 100% of the race, not just 99%) I try not to use my capitol to build things even though it is a good prod. city. That is the main research city, Oxford, etc. and should build research if possible. You may be losing a turn building parts there. I get to Fusion fast enough that there is no waiting around. You still have Plastics, Robo, Refrig, Gen. to research before the IW city has to finish the engine and start stasis. In fact, you have so much time to finish the engine, that another city could take it on and the IW city could do docking bay or some thrusters. Too bad I joined the discussion after the gauntlet. Maybe the next space race will look more appealing. I didn't try this one.

Lots of interesting points there. Yes on Deity level your build order makes sense to get the GE. Hmm, I always alternate between parts and research in the capital since it usually has high production. Do the multipliers from the Capital's buildings count towards building research I wonder (can't remember)? If so I will consider leaving the capital as a build research site. I see now why you feel that the Space Elevator is counterproductive. Currently I play as many probably do with one or two cities building currency to get to 100% research and the rest of idle cities building reasearch. Me too, I was ready to do another space Gauntlet because I hadn't really participated as much as I should have in this one other than posting. After doing a couple of early games here I went off and did some League of Nations games. Should have done another Elizabeth game (possibly in vanilla to guarantee Oracle -> CS) to utilize what I had learned (beeline Computers!). HC should have been in the opponents list for this one IMO.

 

[WastinTime]

HC should have been in the opponents list for this one IMO.

This is the #1 reason I did not participate.

 

[Alan_of_Dale]

This is the #1 reason I did not participate.

That's not necessarily something you should divulge. Otherwise that information might be used to exclude possibly the most dangerous opponent/civ in the game, i.e., WastinTime.

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

That's not necessarily something you should divulge. Otherwise that information might be used to exclude possibly the most dangerous opponent/civ in the game, i.e., WastinTime.

I love this method to go up in ranks. We should sweep through former gauntlets to check which settings prevent the godly players to participate and release a gauntlet with all these settings combined. This will be the time for the medium players (like me)

 

[Alan_of_Dale]

I love this method to go up in ranks. We should sweep through former gauntlets to check which settings prevent the godly players to participate and release a gauntlet with all these settings combined. This will be the time for the medium players (like me)

Need I say more?

AoD

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well, WastinTime hasn't got Warlords if I remember correctly, so his games are even more impressive considering most of the best games seem to be with warlords expansion. (Except maybe conquest/domination due to the AI being even more stupid and no protective civs, which you could decide not to pick anyway).

 

[Alan_of_Dale]

Well, WastinTime hasn't got Warlords if I remember correctly, so his games are even more impressive considering most of the best games seem to be with warlords expansion. (Except maybe conquest/domination due to the AI being even more stupid and no protective civs, which you could decide not to pick anyway).

His games or is it her, not sure? Actually, if you look at HoF deity level cultural, diplomatic, time, and even half of the space race, vanilla still has the best times.
So is Warlords really better or does its harder and less pleased AI, and the no Mathematics prerequisite for CS in vanilla make Warlords worse? As for domination games, Warlords has some nice advantages. Several of the peaceful civs have had Creative removed, HC is even better, and Catherine has become domination uber.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I think WastinTime is a he, it's Moonsinger who is the First Lady of the Quechua Rush.

Hmm I see your point about the civil service slingshot and the AI/civ changes making things harder in warlords too.

Huayna is stupidly overpowered though in warlords. What was he, fin/agg before, now he has industrious instead of aggressive, for big score milk? Plus Quechua still get the aggressive combat promotion! And I would have loved to see the design meeting where they decided that what he really needed was a granary that gave culture to make him even better. What were they thinking?

 

[Alan_of_Dale]

Hmm I see your point about the civil service slingshot and the AI/civ changes making things harder in warlords too.

Huayna is stupidly overpowered though in warlords. What was he, fin/agg before, now he has industrious instead of aggressive, for big score milk? Plus Quechua still get the aggressive combat promotion! And I would have loved to see the design meeting where they decided that what he really needed was a granary that gave culture to make him even better. What were they thinking?

Yes, instead of nerfing Inca like they needed to, they made them even more uber. I also scratch my head over still giving Quechua the aggressive combat promotion. That can't be right. As a result of Inca alone I would say that domination and conquest is easier in Warlords. However, the peaceful game types still seem easier in vanilla. Hence, I still play both. This play-unbalancing is exactly backwards with respect victory date of military vs peace games that they needed to go IMO.

 

[WastinTime]

His games or is it her, not sure? Actually, if you look at HoF deity level cultural, diplomatic, time, and even half of the space race, vanilla still has the best times.
So is Warlords really better or does its harder and less pleased AI, and the no Mathematics prerequisite for CS in vanilla make Warlords worse? As for domination games, Warlords has some nice advantages. Several of the peaceful civs have had Creative removed, HC is even better, and Catherine has become domination uber.

I'm a he, if that matters.
And, yes, I'm still way back on vanilla. I'm trying to stop playing Civ IV, so getting Warlords is not going to help with that goal.

That math pre-req does sound evil, but I think Warlords should be able to beat vanilla since most other changes seem to work in its favor.