G-Minor 40

[Rain]

I sent the copies of the files and no i havent submitted it. I stopped at the point where the issue occurred to report it first. I have played this set up numerous times but its the first time the situation cropped up. Usually because I make a point of allying the civ next door, but I tried a little different approach this time.

Not a big deal if its invalid - but it could happen in the other games so folks should be aware and i suppose if you went out of your way you could attempt to exploit it in some way.

 

[FiveAces]

Hmm. That's interesting. Since you left NCR unchecked, I'm guessing vanilla/WL is subject to the same problem - in vanilla once you make a PA you cannot be culture pressed by your partner beyond their BFC's - if they have say a third ring tile in your BFC with more culture than you, once you make the PA, ownership of it switches over to you automatically. It would be logical that whatever code governs this switch would also govern the "no culture to raise" requirement. That's just a guess though - I can't read the code.

 

[bestje]

You get 1 turn of "war buddy" points for each turn you are in a shared war with another AI, doesn't matter if it is against 2 or more opponents or you were asked to join or not, still just counts as 1 turn (of 40).

Improved my time to 1950AD (good enough for 3rd) by using Genghis as my attack dog. Would have been able to get a much faster time but he had enough on his hands for nearly the entire early portion of the game until declaring on Hatty (I had to wait 30 turns I reckon). With only 3-4 turns remaining until we could PA up, he then vassalised her and it took me a few turns to realise and get him to attack someone else with me.

I also find it frustrating that they don't split their attacking forces up more. At one stage he had a stack of 45 cavalry, 20 infantry and 15 cannons attacking cities defended by 2-3 longbows one at a time. I ended up attacking cities myself down to one defender so his pillaging cavalry (that he would send out one by one) would take the cities.

Must admit it is a pretty fun gauntlet.

thats one turn faster than my game, i guess i need to do it again if i want my third place back

 

[Casper84]

I'm gonna quit this gauntlet, I've tried 6 times already and no succes. My current game is in the 1880's and I don't really have time to finish it. I can't keep my/our tech lead big enough and I should have selected my civs (and probably with max. opponents and an early war). My last game contained 3 protective civs, all nearest to me and my ally.
Looking forward to the next one.

 

[Rain]

Things I found helpful in BTS for this game. Probably lots of room for improvement but you should be able to win do reasonably well.


Max civs for the map size.
High sea level with tropical.
Ideal location will allow you to block the map in your section.
Avoid spiritual/protective opposition/and Mansa Musa types and you do not want an overload of aggressives that spam units and make your wars longer.
Pick your PA partner asap and never do anything that would annoy them.
Build only protective units early.
Build library asap then 2 sci folks til you pop a GP for academy.
Oracle slingshot to CS. Save any additional GP scientists for education.
Monarchy.
Then beeline to MT unless you get involved in a helpful war or need to tuck in feudalism in the mix for longbows to defer a greedy neighbour.
Gift anything you do not need to the target PA.
Post MT beeline to Comm consider Gunpowder if you need it for defense.
Pick a civ close by for your partner - this may cost you some squares initially but the warring is easier subsquently as you have internal lines.
When you get religions share with your target and always stay on their religion.
If they go to war - you go to war - always lock step with the target.
Be careful about giving them tech you do not want them too powerful and you dont want them giving it away before you PA.
Always direct their research and their targets.
You do not even need a tech lead to win. The key is to leverage your units so that yours are high xp builds.
Never lose a unit if you can avoid it since your output it is limited.
Your job is to soften the target and let the ai do the dirty work - at least until you have big raiders.

Forget about the GT until you have your PA since prior to that you do not want to go wandering about with your army anyways.
Important wonders Oracle, GT, National E, Oxford U, West Point (use 1st or 2nd general to leverage one unit to level 6) Pentagon, and the National Park if you find time for Biology or Ironworks if you need the hammers badly.
Save all your forests.

Direct your pet to destroy one soft neighbour civ. Use your troops for the hammer knowing the ai will drag along behind. Beat the city down and let them scoop it up. Once you have that one civ flattened and absorbed its territory vassalize all the rest (your land mass should be large enough to prevent vassals escaping). Tech up your capitulated vassals and roll on.

 

[Rain]

Thanks for the notification and we are looking into it. I'm at work, so can't access the HOF site (work blocks it, but not the forums). Have you already submitted this game? Also, as stated in the PM can you email us both the before and after save to hof.civfanatics@gmail.com?

Also I can now confirm this is not an isolated occurrence. I recaptured the city of Tver which you can see on the original maps i submitted and it also did not raze and was assigned to the OCC civ. You are able to gift it back immediately. So essentially the code does not permit you to raze the culturally defined cities of your PA partner.

 

[Casper84]

@ Rain: thanks for posting that, I may try that when I have time after the gauntlet. My initial tech pace is good enough I suppose, at least up until CS (700BC or thereabouts). Liberalism 500AD I can also do now but I always have to wait to get MT for free (approx. 1000AD). Then it slows, not sure why exactly. No way I can manage tanks in 1700AD, more their historical date (early 20th century).
The PA I got around turn 145 in my last game which is decent enough I suppose. But somehow I can't keep my military up and tech fast at the same time. I might never really learn until I can view a good game turn by turn.
Oh yeah, my start locations are probably below average. Some starts I see from others, perhaps with the downloaded map generator (like that 2 gold, 2 gems 2 clams start earlier maybe), I use the HOF one. If I look at my latest city site, it only has cows and stone, but I settled mainly for the floodplains. Coal came later, and rice, pigs, dye, iron and 2 more cattle outside the BFC. Only 3 hills (no problem with settled GE's and GP's) but plenty of forests of which I preserved 7 for specialists with Nat.Park. Mountain range and my borders cut off the land which is nice.

 

[Rain]

145 is fine for a PA. The fastest one i saw mentioned was 134. I don't think that is your issue if thats the case. Perhaps you are underestimating the force of the compunding vassals. If you tech them up (capped ones) and get them helping in the war effort the pace really picks up. Its getting those first couple of civs taken care that takes time. Also once you get basic science items built there is really nothing else you need other than units. Even the pentagon is not necessarliy worth it if you dont really need xps badly. Every turn it takes to build is one less unit and you should be doing one a turn with overflow.

Out of curiousity who are you using for a leader?

 

[Casper84]

Peter mostly, or Alex.

 

[WastinTime]

145 is fine for a PA. The fastest one i saw mentioned was 134.

I got a PA on turn 104, but that's because I go to Communism before MT.

 

[Rain]

I find its difficult to maintain the war turns and i am certain that there are occasions it takes more than 40 turns of combined DP and war to get a PA. (BTS) That being said the pure pact is the better way if you can do it.

Was your game was on vanilla?

Re the leaders Alex is an interesting try though I havent used him. Peter was my partner in my best result.

 

[Denniz]

Also I can now confirm this is not an isolated occurrence. I recaptured the city of Tver which you can see on the original maps i submitted and it also did not raze and was assigned to the OCC civ. You are able to gift it back immediately. So essentially the code does not permit you to raze the culturally defined cities of your PA partner.

As long as the city is immediated gifted back to the PA Partner, the game should be okay for the guantlet.

I guess we are going to have to check the histograph data for number of cities during the game, so be sure to let us know if you acquired an extra in your gauntlet submission.

 

[DJMGator13]

Another tip: your 40 turns of shared war do not have to be against the same AI. I did 18 turns against one AI and then when my partner (pre-PA) made peace I declared on some one else and brought the same partner into that war. 22 turns later I could sign a PA.

 

[Rain]

I had another go just to try out wastin's approach and I can see how its achievable. I got one on 121 but i diverted to a couple of techs that were not in the direct path so i could build the parth and get some long bows. I was a little light on coin as well but basically nothing special in the city squares just floods a cow and some marble so you dont have to have a pile of gold mines or gems to get there. I tossed my partner two techs for the war and that was it. You can probably faciltate the war by tossing your confucian missionary in one direction and your taoist in the other.

Research path went to astronomy - for an observatory then researched to SM to within 1 turn went back brought lib to 1 turn to save the monastery kick. The finish SM , finish lib grab comm and sign on the dotted line. I used GP's on Ed PP and SM as well if i recall and traded for a couple of techs the ai had like calendar.

 

[manic_bob]

Hello everyone - my first post ever!

First of all, thanks to everyone who has posted ideas on this thread and others - I learned so much and some of you are so good at this game! I haven't played computer games in 10+ years but man, Civ IV is great.

I'm currently #2 with a sub-1900 game (beyond the sword) using a pretty different strategy and believe I could do 10+ turns earlier with better gameplay. Here it goes:

I didn't try for a permanent alliance early, instead I worked on getting a tech lead and traded almost nothing. I noticed that once I got a permanent alliance the cost of techs seemed to go up. Did anyone else notice this?

I think Mansu Mansu is the best leader because you need financial for the tech lead and spiritual saves you turns when you accede to demands like change religion. Here was my path:

1) Monarchy (to grow big)
2) Civil Service (+50% prod/gold bonus) (I might reverse this next time)
3) Education (for univ and oxford)
4) Biology (national park for the specialists and elimination of unhealthiness)
5) Globe theater (forget the tech) to eliminate unhappiness for
6) Representation to get a big tech bonus. I was running 600+ beakers a turn
7) communism for the permanent alliance. I got this around turn 145 or so - you do not need to get this early.

Next I build rifleman and then infantry and conquered the world while my useless ally sat around. The key is that you do not need to have him conquer the cities - simply sack them and he'll build new ones himself, quickly occupying the land. Having an expansive, organized or creative leader seems to help since they are more likely to build settlers or have their culture increase. My ally conquered maybe six cities total. Near the end I vassalized everyone but the last guy.

A warlike leader can be good but you'll still wait forever for him act.

I liked to pick someone a few spots away from me. I march my army and crush the intervening civs and then he settles in the background. If he is right next to me that process takes longer since he is less likely to settle a border. If war is declared (I used aggressive AI) great, declare war on the guy far away so you don't have to get involved (don't fight early - only tech). I think I only had to bribe one guy to declare war. I didn't go for an early PA so this wasn't a problem. Once I wanted the PA I bribed him, switched to his favourite civic and changed my religion (I've done more to get dates).

I used high sea-level and max number of civs. I did no almost no tech trading since I want a tech lead and my new partner will fill in the more useless techs anyways.

For maps it almost doesn't matter, but I like ones with lots of forests (for later specialists and early health), flood plains (for big cities, health cost won't matter after biology) and food sources (for big cities and more specialists). A river for all non-forest tiles is critical for the +1 commerce. I didn't care at all about any health or happiness resources since I won't need them for the second half of the game (national park and globe theater) and I went to monarchy early (building warriors) meaning I could get a huge city. I don't care about production resources since I'm focusing on research and don't need to build many units until turn 130+, by which time I can build the national epic (+100% military production) and thus build any unit in one turn (forest give lots of production).

For wonders, I only built oxford, national park and globe theater. Anything else detracts from tech - just produce research.

Anyways, hope this is helpful

-- Manic

 

[WastinTime]

I mentioned earlier that I tried the strategy of clearing space to let your partner settle. It seemed like the right thing to do to avoid the City Razing problem. It did not work at all for me. Catherine didn't build settlers. Maybe it was Catherine. Maybe it was that I was on BTS. I think it was because she was at war. Do you go to war alone and leave your future partner at peace?

Regarding wonders. Globe and Nat.Park seem like a good idea for OCC, but I never considered building either in this gauntlet. The Park comes too late to matter, and you have to research Biology and then build it. I'd rather build military. Same with Globe. If this was an OCC space race, sure. But does your city really need to be that big? It just needs to be big enough to build a military unit in 1 turn. Happiness/health aren't really a problem. After Oxford, I build non-stop military units except for Heroic Epic. I stick that in when it becomes available.

 

[bestje]

i've also found that catherine isn't really settling in the spaces especially ones not close to her original empire, but she isn't messing about too much with her army either
if you reduce the cultural defence and cripple the defenders she will usually capture the city with her units.

the only advantage to a bigger city is more overflow gold lets you build a bigger army

 

[manic_bob]

I did this with several leaders as partners and they all built settlers rather quickly. Remember that I used a hybrid strategy - if I thought they would take the city and had units nearby I'd reduce it to one weak defender and just hope. Otherwise I'd raze and move on.

For me, I wanted to hit the advanced techs and roll over the opposition. This worked pretty well but it meant I didn't build units until very late. Are you the number 1 spot? It would help to know how many turns I need to make up

I might try a game where I just beeline to rifleman and then pump out troops. I suspect I'd have to turn my cottages in watermills though which would destroy my teching.

-- Manic

 

[WastinTime]

Are you the number 1 spot? It would help to know how many turns I need to make up

I am with a date in the 1600's

 

[Casper84]

Tonight I started a new game (probably won't finish) and, well, maybe it's because of the gold I got in the BFC (just 1), but I slingshot my way to CS in at 1100BC this time, and education was, err...turn 67. Don't remember the date. But in this game I early-teched much faster than before, must be the gold. Starting location was pretty good too: (BFC) - 3 spices, 1 gold, sheep, cattle ; (Outside BFC) - horses, copper, iron, marble, corn, 2 dye, another spice and possibly another corn and a pig at the next border pop.
Opponents: 9 (3 at the top and bottom, 2 on each side). I'm positioned bottom left and playing Peter again. Going clockwise are De Gaulle, Roosevelt, Augustus, Suleiman, Yaqob, Cyrus, Cathy, Joao and Shaka. Cathy was my planned ally but a little inconveniently located IMO (I prefer to ally a neighbour, or maybe 1 further next door).
My neighbours De Gaulle and Shaka went to war so after a little while I decided to join De Gaulle against Shaka. Nearly got taken out by a 15 unit stack but fortunately he kept hitting my 8 unit stack in a forest so he lost his stack and I lost only 2 units or so. Currently building forces and beelining to Communism and it's 1080AD or turn 115. I got MT again at turn 105 but the war started earlier. In fact, Shaka and De Gaulle made peace but I could send De Gaulle over again right away for a few techs.