G-Minor 40

[Conquistador 63]

iRazeCityProb: Determines the probability that a conquered city is razed - is only included in last check, other values e.g. holy city, active world wonder or number of nearby cities can override this. From Ori's useful leader info spreadsheets, this can be between 75 (Genghis) and 0. For bad guys like Monty, Shaka, Ragnar, etc. it is 50.

 

[Methos]

I'm going to allow using 'No City Razing' on the condition that the human player controls his/her OCC only. The human player may never hold another city. If they do, the submission is automatically removed from the gauntlet.

I believe this is fair, though dangerous for BTS players.

 

[WastinTime]

So Catherine's iRazeCityProb is 0. Wouldn't that mean never razes? Well, she was my partner and smoked a lot of cities. I'm lost.

 

[WastinTime]

Cathy did keep all of the last dozen or so cities. So something triggered her to keep them, where earlier she didn't keep any. I wonder if it's something like State Property civic that does that?

 

[bestje]

it must be ignoring cost of keeping it, so if keeping the city will crash their economy they won't but after SP when they can afford to they won't raze it

 

[WastinTime]

My first two trys finished in exactly the same number of turns...one with BTS one on Vanilla.

I played my last run with "No Razing" on vanilla. I finished more than 200 years earlier. Of course part of that is my strategy improves with each run.

 

[DJMGator13]

Finally got a completed game. I kept having trouble either getting the PA or the tech pace among the AI's was keeping pace and the game became a modern age slugfest. But each experience taught me something new as I have not played either an OCC or a PA game before.

I played [Warlords with the no city raze option off] as Liz and reached MT on turn 94, getting my DP with Cathy. 40 turns later got the PA and we are off to dominate the world. We have the tech lead and only Asoka is even close to us in techs and he is friendly to us and not on good terms with the others.

After wiping out Mehmed and nearly all of Shaka & Izzy cities, Izzy became a vassal to Asoka. Asoka had never been to war with Izzy, did not have a good relationship and was pleased with us (both Cathy and Liz). At the time Izzy was actually in a seperate war with Monty. It was strange that Asoka would accept them as a vassal. That put was us in a tank vrs tank battle with Asoka, while we hadn't seen anything stronger than a rifle from Shaka, Monty, Mehmed or Lizzy. This easily added 15 to 20 turn to the game.

I finished in 1980AD, turn 260 or in other terms 126 turns after getting the PA. I wish we could control the units once the PA is signed. This game should have been won in about 60 turns after the PA but the AI sat on so many units in cities nowhere close to the front.

 

[DJMGator13]

It was strange that Asoka would accept them as a vassal.

Don't they say you're in trouble when you start answering yourself. But I found a good article on the Vassal System in the War Academy. Apparently this type of action was very common prior to the 2.08 path.

*Prior to the v2.08 patch there was a tendency by the AI that when losing a war with the player, the AI would align itself with a Player-“friendly” Civ by becoming a Vassal and then drag a Civ, which the player may have been closely “allied” with, into war against the player. The v2.08 patch did not create some magic rule saying this can no longer happen just that the decision would be more thoughtfully evaluated by the AI. A good quick, rule of thumb is that one of the factors the AI is going to judge this decision by is: is your military power equal to, less than or significantly greater then, his and his new Vassal's military power. If your "Ally" thinks he could otherwise take you on and come out the better he is going to do it (and let's be blunt, so would you). Your "Ally" basically weights the decision like this: "Yeah, I'm friendly with the player, but is this too good an opportunity to pass up?"

That is exactly what happened in my game. I could have taken them as a vassal myself but wanted the full land value, not the half tile count of a vassal. Even with the PA signed the comparison for military power must have been made against me as a single civ not as the combined team.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I had another go at it, this time with no city razing unchecked. This slowed me a bit, but I had a very nice ally (Roos), tanks in 1700AD. In 1916AD I was at war with last non-vassal and 6 tiles away from Dom. However I did not pay close attention and 3 cities were conquered in the last turn, giving me a domination and a conquest win in the same turn - but conquest took precedence!

Oh well, a 1918 finish would be nice enough for me, but I'm moving on to other games, I had enough fun with this gauntlet anyway.

 

[Casper84]

Can someone give me a rundown on tech paths, wonder builds and what not? There are a dozen things to beeline for or to build a.s.a.p. and that it's a little overwhelming. No idea which order to do everything.
I'm always much later than you guys (getting the PA around turn 190) and 1 game in which I actually managed the PA, the AI wasn't far enough behind in tech to be easily run over (and letting the AI do ALL the fighting for me is perhaps not a good idea).
So far my general strategy was settling all specialists (1 academy though) and beelining CS, MT, Facism/Communism and Biology as the most important techs. This time I'm thinking of bulbing some techs first and using war instead of a defensive pact to start a PA (Has to be 40 turns straight right? Hope I can manage that). And then there's also that cursed AP that someone always builds and prevents me from waging a war long enough because they're voting for peace.
So any tips for me?
My choice of Civ is Russia (Peter).

Edit: And to make it worse, I just missed the Oracle-CS slingshot by 1 turn (680 BC).

 

[FiveAces]

Your path looks good in general. On OCC you should always beeline Edu for Oxford (writ-alpha-CS-edu). I would advise against researching off the beeline except for what you must have, like mon for HR or music if you need a DP. From there, you should either go to Nat and use Lib for MT if you will need a DP for the PA or go straight to Comm and use Lib for Sci Meth or Comm, depending on which great persons (if any) you have ready to bulb.

Popping a GS asap for an academy is essential. If you have a 2nd GS early enough you can use him on education, otherwise save for sci meth. Settle all prophets for the hammers.

Oracle should be for CS or maybe edu (if it lasts that long). I don't think you need any other wonders - IMO the hammers are better used elsewhere anyway.

You need 40 total turns of mutual war for the PA. They don't need to be consecutive though. And yes, that's better than a DP - it's faster than teching to MT and waiting 40 turns and you've already started on your conquest.

 

[Casper84]

Ok, thanks FiveAces. Yes Education is also important. I'll probably start a new game and try out the W-A-CS-E path. And depending on the map any other techs I need.
As far as wonders are concerned, I was building Ox, Nat.Epic, Nat.Park and GT as national wonders and when possible Oracle and Pyramids as world wonders. Not much else, lots of science buildings though.
I'll have another go at it soon.

 

[FiveAces]

Sorry, I was referring to mainly to WW, not NW. The NW's are useful when you can squeeze them in. I don't think Pyramids is worth the hammers on OCC though - you won't have many specialists early, esp w/out GL - by the time you get to NP you should also be able to run Rep the old fashioned way? Skip them both and build military would be my recommendation.

 

[Heroic]

OK. I'm a warmonger at heart, but was intrigued at the idea of OCC with the AI doing the warring. So I set up a game with several peacenicks plus napoleon and ragnar. I figure with two high unit builders 1 will not be 1st in power and I can get a DP/PA with the one that is not. I set religions to "choose religions", so i will get christianity with COL and then spread it to napolean (his favorite religion). I also decide to go for pyramids to get representation early (napolean's favorite civic), in an effort to get the "you have chosed your civics wisely" from him, while no one else would be able to (not having representation).

Apparently I have a lot to lean about dipomacy. First of all, I never got a single +1 or anything for "you have chosen your civics wisely" even after researching constitution and gifting it, and getting him to switch to it, still nothing. So here's my question, What does it take to get a "you have chosen your civics wisely" bonus?

Second diplo question. on setup, I did check the PA checkbox, and confirmed in the settings that PA was checked. before i get military tradition, ragnar asks me to go to war against gandhi. Great, war turns reduce DP waiting turns, so I agree. Then I get mil tradition, and look for the DP (defensive pact) option with him......nothing, not even listed on the screen at all. I look at it with napolean, nothing, not even listed. I look at all civs, and it is not even listed on the screen where you discuss deals with them. can trade techs, yes, can convert yes, can adopt civis yes, can exchange resources yes, but no DP option. Is there some hidden requirement I am missing? Are you not allowed to be at war with anybody at all, in order to have the DP option or is there something else that makes it so that DPs are not an option.

I gave up at that point, because although i had both napoleon and ragnar at friendly, it was impossible to get a DP, (since the option was not even listed on the screen), let alone try for a PA.

What am I missing on these two aspects ("you have chosen your civics wisely" & getting DP as a option to trade with)???

 

[Casper84]

Don't know about the Civics issue, but yes you need to be at peace with everyone if you want to get the DP option. An active DP is also cancelled when you enter war (regardless of who starts it).

 

[Conquistador 63]

You can't enter a DP while at war. About civics, are you sure both of you are running his favorite civic? If yes, maybe a few turns might be necessary for the bonus to show up. Otherwise it could be a bug.

 

[Heroic]

Well, I confirmed that we both had representation, and sure enough - lesson learned after a few turns, there it was +1. This essentially makes my choice of Napoleon + pyramids completely ineffective since it makes zero difference until you research and give him constitution so he can adopt.

As for the DP issue, i made peace with everyone. Then DP was listed but only with some civs. I looked back at the diplomacy screen, and sure enough it was listed only with the civs that are at peace with everyone. Lesson learned: both civs must be at peace with everyone in order to make a DP.

At first though, this DP finding is slightly daunting since you probably want a agressive warmonger to be the PA who you feed tech and who then conquers the world, yet it is highly likely that right when you want him, he will be at war, and need coaxing to peace. Worse yet, if he is not at war and makes the DP, it is highly likely that he will break the DP before you get 40 turns.

Remedy #1. But with deeper reflection these initial downsides are likely easily remedied. If you are in DP and he goes to war, go to war too. This leads to a new diplomacy question:

QUESTION#1: Do you only get war buddy points if you are "asked" to go to war? Or do you still get them if you both just happen to be at war with the same civ coincidentally? If coincidental counts, then this contributes further to examining Remedy #2.

Remedy #2. If he is at when you get MT war, simply declare war on the same civ and get the war buddy bonus, which counts towards your PA turns. This leads to a new question

QUESTION #2: how do war buddy turns get counted? It seems like everyone says you need 40-50 turns. But then the question is how exactly is "turn" defined. For example if ragnar and I are both at war with gandhi and with asoka, then do I gain "war buddy turns" twice as fast as if we were at war with just gandhi? Or is it the same speed? If twice as fast, then you might get to PA much faster by skipping DP and simply getting him and you to declare war as much as you two can handle. Then make peace with some enemies and hone the attack on a few. Anyone have insight on this?

Sorry for more questions...but my curiousity is growing.

 

[Ozbenno]

You get 1 turn of "war buddy" points for each turn you are in a shared war with another AI, doesn't matter if it is against 2 or more opponents or you were asked to join or not, still just counts as 1 turn (of 40).

Improved my time to 1950AD (good enough for 3rd) by using Genghis as my attack dog. Would have been able to get a much faster time but he had enough on his hands for nearly the entire early portion of the game until declaring on Hatty (I had to wait 30 turns I reckon). With only 3-4 turns remaining until we could PA up, he then vassalised her and it took me a few turns to realise and get him to attack someone else with me.

I also find it frustrating that they don't split their attacking forces up more. At one stage he had a stack of 45 cavalry, 20 infantry and 15 cannons attacking cities defended by 2-3 longbows one at a time. I ended up attacking cities myself down to one defender so his pillaging cavalry (that he would send out one by one) would take the cities.

Must admit it is a pretty fun gauntlet.

 

[Rain]

Need a judgement on this issue. This is a BTS game.

Ok I have not checked the no raze button so normally everything i take is razed and that was working fine had razed three cities in a war. Then something odd happened.

There is a civ between my PA partner and my civ and in the course of the war with that civ the PA partner lost a city to the intervening civ. In the course of breaking a path through to my partner i attacked this city and surprise when i beat down the last unit it did not raze but stayed as my city presumably since the dominant culture is still that of my PA partner. I was immediately able to gift the city to my PA partner and I did that.

So...
since I was momentarily in possession of the second city is the game invalid? Not sure if this is a bug or an intended ablity to allow you to assist your partner without destroying his cities. I saved the before and after gift for the record if you need to look at them.

And secondly if its not valid BEWARE if you are on BTS and recapture one of your partners cities as you will get possession of it without a raze option.

 

[Methos]

Thanks for the notification and we are looking into it. I'm at work, so can't access the HOF site (work blocks it, but not the forums). Have you already submitted this game? Also, as stated in the PM can you email us both the before and after save to hof.civfanatics@gmail.com?