G-Minor 70

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I was running Pangea. I like gems that support themselves (grassland river) or gold with a grassland food tile. I can get a much faster start on a Pangea map. I tried Terra a few days ago, but there seems to be fewer two commerce (gold or gems) starts on terra. Maybe all the precious metals are in the new world on Terra.

Terra does have fewer Mining Resources than Pangaea. Terra also has slightly fewer Forests as well. Pangaea is the best Map for RL DV, assuming one gets 2 Mining Resources (preferably one grassland Gems and one plains hill Gold, or two grassland Gems - would eventually grow to Population 3 and possibly even 4, allowing Missionaries to be Pop rushed in the late game) and at least 20 Forests inside Ring 3 (plus an optional Food Resource/non-Resource Tile).

So you aren't finding enough Gems Tiles? For Gm-70, I ran MapFinder on Pangaea looking for 2 Commerce Tiles, but never saw more than 2 Gems. I did see many starts with 2 Gold and even 3 Gold (many with Corn for growth).

Are you looking for Qin Shi Quang or Bismarck starts on Pangaea?

The best growth for a Bismarck start would be the rare (improved) Deer Tile (impossible to find with 2 Gems/Gold) but a 3F tile like Oasis, Floodplain, riverside Corn can provide adequate growth. At Population 2, a grassland Gems can be added with the +3F growth maintained. (Your comments and those of WastinTime convinced me to reconsider Gems starts.)

The best growth for Qin Shi Quang is obviously a riverside Corn Farm (+6F).

I hope you have found my comments above useful.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Robert_Marshall]

Perhaps the RL DV is extended by up to 4 turns only when a single AI Civ has yet to be converted. I was also quite sure I missed my chance when the Stop trading option came up on the 14 turn cycle (14th turn).
Sun Tzu Wu

I could have sworn you mentioned this somewhere in the thread, but I can't find it. How long is it between votes on different speeds?

Also THANK YOU VERY MUCH to you, Mesix and others for such a great discussion. The great tips put everybody that participated into a BC win. For many of us (me included) it was a first win for Deity or Religious.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I could have sworn you mentioned this somewhere in the thread, but I can't find it. How long is it between votes on different speeds?

You can find the TAP Resolution Schedules and the mysterious four turn delay question here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=319079

I know you didn't ask about the odd four delay in the TAP Resolution Schedule, but the TAP Resolution period for all game speeds is also defined in the above thread. No doubt you may want to understand the odd four delay as well.

Also THANK YOU VERY MUCH to you, Mesix and others for such a great discussion. The great tips put everybody that participated into a BC win. For many of us (me included) it was a first win for Deity or Religious.

Congratulations!

The Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory is a great way to break into Deity Level play.

You are welcome!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

Hey HOF Staff...what is up with not checking all of my entries before the update? I could understand if one came in after the update or something, but it appears that one of them (submitted on the 24th BTW) was just skipped.

Spoiler :

 

[Mesix]

Are you looking for Qin Shi Quang or Bismarck starts on Pangaea?

Sun Tzu Wu

When I play Qin, I go for irrigated Corn. When I play Bismark, I go for grassland Pigs.

I use the Wasting Time tech path of AH>Writing when playing Bismark. After teching Writing, I start building a Library while I grow and eventually chop one forest to finish the Library after I tech BW. I figure that the 25% bonus from the Library makes up for the research time for AH. I also get +2 diplo from open borders with this method.

 

[Ozbenno]

Hey HOF Staff...what is up with not checking all of my entries before the update? I could understand if one came in after the update or something, but it appears that one of them (submitted on the 24th BTW) was just skipped.

Game wasn't received until after we did the update.

 

[Mesix]

But two entries that were submitted after it were?

 

[Ozbenno]

But two entries that were submitted after it were?

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong entry. That one had the wrong 4000BC save. Things are hectic with the staff at the moment, you'll get the official notification today sometime.

 

[Mesix]

Thanks for the info. That game was played on my (wife's) desktop and not my laptop. I will have to check to see if I have the 4000BC save when I get home.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

When I play Qin, I go for irrigated Corn. When I play Bismark, I go for grassland Pigs.

I use the Wasting Time tech path of AH>Writing when playing Bismark. After teching Writing, I start building a Library while I grow and eventually chop one forest to finish the Library after I tech BW. I figure that the 25% bonus from the Library makes up for the research time for AH. I also get +2 diplo from open borders with this method.

Good strategy for Bismarck. I assume you complete the Library well before Priesthood is completed and The Oracle is started. It will be difficult to complete Writing in time (around turn 40) to ensure that one can have 50 turns of Open Borders that provides the +2 Diplomatic bonus.

Computing the turn cost of Researching an Early Optional Technology:

Assuming Animal Husbandry takes 18 turns at 9 Bpt, its cost in additional turns near finish date of a game excluding this Technology when the Research rate is Y Bpt will approximately be Z = 18 * (9 / Y). So, if the final Research rate is 27 Bpt (22 Bpt, +25% for the Library), Z = 18 * (9 / 27) = 18 * (1 / 3) = 6 turns. Thus, adding Animal Husbandry to the Research path when it isn't strictly required to Win a DL DV, adds only 6t to the Win date.

The general formula for computing the turn cost of Researching an Early Optional Technology is:

Z = W * (X / Y)

Where:

Z is the turns added to the final Winning turn due to researching an early optional Technology (like a Worker Technology such as Agriculture, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, etc.)

W is the actual no. of turns it took to complete the Early Optional Technology.

X is the average Research rate in Bpt while the Early Optional Technology was being researched. (It is often only 9 Bpt.)

Y is the Research rate in Bpt at the end assuming the Early Optional Technology was not researched.

Of course this computation doesn't take into account how many turns adding the Early Optional Technology could shorten the game. That is another computation that is probably too complicated for any simple formula and can only be estimated/guessed by an experienced player.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

The last time I used this strategy I had settled on a Wine resource near a river and started with 11 per turn. I also had three commerce resources (2 gold and 1 gem I think) and my output after I had the Library was 41 per turn with a size 4 city. I didn't have enough forests though, so my research outpaced my ability to build in the end.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The last time I used this strategy I had settled on a Wine resource near a river and started with 11 per turn. I also had three commerce resources (2 gold and 1 gem I think) and my output after I had the Library was 41 per turn with a size 4 city. I didn't have enough forests though, so my research outpaced my ability to build in the end.

Superb research rate! Your early 11 per turn should easily get Animal Husbandry and Writing before the 50 turn Open Borders clock starts ticking down (around turn 40). With an end game Research rate of 41 per turn, you should easily get Alphabet well before the first RL DV Resolution as well. With 50 turns of Open Borders and Alphabet well before the DV Vote, you should also have few problems with Diplomacy, not counting close Borders issues and bad Events.

With two Plain Hill Gold Mines (2 x 3H) and one Grassland Gems Mine (1H), you should have a good Hammer rate of at least 8 per turn. That's really good for an early RL DV Game. It also gives you 12 per turn with the Industrious trait and 14 per turn with the Industrious trait and Organized Religion. Any additional Hammers you need must come from Forests and as a last resort Population via Slavery.

Like you said, all you needed were more Forests and perhaps enough Workers to Chop them.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

If memory serves, I had enough workers (probably 4). I chopped my last forest ahd had 8-9 turns left on TAP. That additional build time put the finish date later than my previous best. I also didn't have any forests to chop for Missionaries. I guess I could have whipped them, but it was a moot point with the late date. I ended up disgarding that game and started another one which I didn't finish until after the update unfortunately.

 

[Misotu]

Perhaps the RL DV is extended by up to 4 turns only when a single AI Civ has yet to be converted. I was also quite sure I missed my chance when the Stop trading option came up on the 14 turn cycle (14th turn). I assume that when one gets the delayed RL DV option on 15th, 16th, 17th or 18th turn, no option would have been presented on the prior 14th turn (counted from the turn TAP was completed on; the turn before the Resident Election Ballot appears = turn 1).

How to delay the RL DV Ballot by up to 4 turns? Misotu, can you answer this?

No, I'm sorry I can't. But what you've said is very interesting - it definitely does get delayed and I have only once had the "stop trading" option come up in the games I've played. What the factor(s) are that control this I really don't know - haven't been observing carefully enough

Generally, it would be true that there would only be 1 civ left to be converted by that point, so your hypothesis could be correct. Wish I'd paid more attention now when the "stop trading with roosevelt" option came up.

 

[Mesix]

Stop trading will come up only if there are nonmembers. For example, if there are five players in the game and four of them are TAP members, the "Stop Trading" resolution will come up for the fifth player who is not a member. "Stop War with Player X" is another resolution, and it will only appear if Player X is a member of TAP.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

No, I'm sorry I can't. But what you've said is very interesting - it definitely does get delayed and I have only once had the "stop trading" option come up in the games I've played. What the factor(s) are that control this I really don't know - haven't been observing carefully enough

Generally, it would be true that there would only be 1 civ left to be converted by that point, so your hypothesis could be correct. Wish I'd paid more attention now when the "stop trading with roosevelt" option came up.

My "Stop Trading" Resolution came up right on schedule, the 14th turn after building TAP. So the "Stop Trading" Resolution probably means nothing with regard to the 4 turn delay. In any case, I'm not interested in the "Stop Trading" Resolution and I'm sure it is a "red herring".

I just want to know what can cause the 4 turn delay, whether it allows delaying the TAP DV Resolution ballot turn and how the mechanics of this delay work.

Thank you both Misotu and Mesix for your comments on this subject. I started a new thread on the occasional four turn delay in the TAP cycle here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=319079

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In the 1500BC game, the BFC had 2 Oases and 2 plains hill Gold, and again I settled the city on a plains hill. That city ran at size 4 for most of the game, before I whipped it down to size 1 at the end, to get the missionaries out. It had 11 forests in the BFC, plus a further 9 forests in the third ring.

Did you utilize the two Oases for growth to eventually work the two PH Gold Mines whne the Population reached 3 and 4? No Food Resource or anything 3F or potentially larger was mentioned that could be used for growth.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Misotu]

In any case, I'm not interested in the "Stop Trading" Resolution and I'm sure it is a "red herring".

You are probably right - the reason why I replied the way I did was that it seemed to me that the "Stop Trading" resolution came up on the 14th turn *instead* of the DV option, which then did not come up in the next few turns. This might be wrongly remembered or I might just have overrun the grace period without realising it, but I didn't think so. I thought that was why you had mentioned it!

 

[Mesix]

On turn 14, any available resolutions should appear. If every player has TAP religion, the Diplo Victory should be available. If a player with TAP religion is at war, a "stop war with player X" should be available. If there is a non TAP player who is trading with some but not all members (there may be other qualifying conditions for this one" then a "stop trading with player x" should be available. If there is a city that belongs to one player but has more culture for another player (both TAP members of course) then there should be an option to convert control of the city.

I'm sure that I missed a few of the resolutions. The point is, when turn 14 (on Epic speed of course) arrives, any and all resoultion that have the prereq conditions met will be available to vote on.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

On turn 14, any available resolutions should appear. If every player has TAP religion, the Diplo Victory should be available. If a player with TAP religion is at war, a "stop war with player X" should be available. If there is a non TAP player who is trading with some but not all members (there may be other qualifying conditions for this one" then a "stop trading with player x" should be available. If there is a city that belongs to one player but has more culture for another player (both TAP members of course) then there should be an option to convert control of the city.

I'm sure that I missed a few of the resolutions. The point is, when turn 14 (on Epic speed of course) arrives, any and all resoultion that have the prereq conditions met will be available to vote on.

So, when none of the Resolutions have their prerequisites met, the game delays up to 4 turns for one of the Resolutions to become valid? Maybe that is what causes the occasional four turn delay in the TAP Resolution schedule.

I have identified one 11 turn cycle in a Quick RL DV game that normally has 7 turn cycles. Eventually, I'll look at some of my other RL DV games for these extra long cycles (always four turns longer for all game speeds).

I'd prefer further discussion on this topic on this thread:

The four turn delay in The Apostolic Palace's Resolution Schedule

Sun Tzu Wu