G-Minor 70

I play random opponents and will only turn of barbs if it looks like it is going to be impossible otherwise ;), so I researched archery ASAP. I know I'm not going to finish 1st in this gauntlet anyway :lol:

ParadigmShifter, why do you make optional parameter choices like Barbarians and Random Opponents that sabotage any chance of an early win that could put you in the top 3, 5, ...? Researching Archery is a waste of time, because you wouldn't need it if simply chose No Barbarians. How many Missionaries do you lose to Barbarian military units? Do send out your Missionaries with slow Archers? Or do you research Animal Husbandry, another otherwise useless Technology, to build Chariot defenders that can keep pace with Missionaries?

If you just stopped handicapping yourself so serverely may discover that you are a far better player in Gauntlets than you think.

Finishing first in any Gauntlet is nice, but doing your best is even better. If your idea of doing your best requires Barbarians and Random Opponents then more Power to you! Nearly everyone else will select what they perceive as the best optional parameters to Win the Gauntlet (or at least do their best to Win).

Good luck in the Barbarians and Random Opponents sub-category. No doubt you will win it, since no one else is likely to compete in it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
ParadigmShifter is a player of principle and the dedicated local masochist :)
 
I'll definitely be giving this one a shot - and my prediction is that, given his performance on the HoF for deity religious, Sun Tzu Wu will be a strong contender too :)

Thanks for the kind comment.

However, all my Deity RL DV games are at Marathon speed (with the exception of a few Quick games). I have no experience with Deity RL DV at the Epic speed this Gauntlet requires. It will be a learning experience for me to adapt my strategies that worked so well at Marathon speed to Epic speed.

Good luck Misotu!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I've stopped researching archery, the deity AI can deal with them ;)

I'm trying to reach QM with all-barb games.
 
Good luck everyone. I just finished a test game 1325 BC with very few forests. Took forever to build the AP and missionaries. Everyone loved me and voted me in unanimously.
Another fail in religion spread 1 turn before the 1275 BC vote... :mad:
2:nd vote was blocked by Gandhi, had to wait for 3:rd vote 550BC :(

Oracle Turn 72 (2200 BC)
AP Turn 90 (1750 BC)

Need more forest. Conclusion ~1500 not impossible, but hard :)

Is there someone with skill in XML how can tell how many turns it's between AP and first election and between elections. Has luck any influence or is predictable? (I try to draw conclusion from log file, but it must be better to study the source :) )
 
I don't want to spoil all the fun of learning the strategy on this, but we very recently had an Epic, Immortal, standard religious gauntlet. That's almost exactly the same as this one. Deity makes research a bit slower, but small makes research a bit faster than standard. I was able to get one game at 1500BC in that gauntlet but it was a replay of a map, so didn't count. So I figure someone will beat 1500 BC because you only have 4 AI instead of 6...and less distance to travel.

Good point, but with only two weeks to complete a nearly ideal game, the winner will likely fall somewhat short of 1500 BC.

Also, Deity where each AI starts with two Settlers is quite different from Immortal where each AI starts with just one Settler. I'm not sure whether this makes it easier or harder, but the difference is huge, so be careful when extrapolating winning dates from Immortal to Deity.

The difference in the minimum number of AI Opponents in a Standard (6) and Small (4) map matters very little. Just need a few more Forests to chop into 2 more Missionaries for Standard versus Small. Still need two waves of Missionaries as required by the 3 Missionary limit per Religion, since 4/3 = 6/3 = 2, rounded up. Also, if one founds Judaism, it can be the AP Religion, but one can start spreading it (build Jewish Missionaries) before Writing and The Oracle is completed in spare turns when nothing else useful can be built.

Distance doesn't matter too much either, unless the land mass is far from circular/square and your start isn't centered in it. Also, one needs only to convert the closest City of each AI Opponent. Gifting the Missionary just inside an AIs territory is another option.

Research rate is what counts the most. Is Immortal Standard research rate more, less or the same as Deity Small research rate?

I just finished a test game 1325 BC with very few forests.

How does a "test" game differ from one you can submit? Every game I play that I win can be submitted to the HOF, since I always play with the appropriate HOF module and never violate HOF rules. I really can't image investing time in a game that couldn't be submitted to the HOF if won.

Well Epic 1325 BC is turn 107, so pre-1500 BC would be 8 turns quicker. Quite possible with the right map and player, but the game still needs to be completed and submitted by the next HOF update to qualify for the Gauntlet (about exactly two weeks from right now).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I just pulled a 1500 BC.
Oracle t76, AP t85, win t100.

I think I was 1 or 2 hammers short of a t99 win.

Congratulations!

Nothing speaks louder than a HOF win.

However, being just 1t short of your prediction means you will have to play again to win this Gauntlet as well as validate your prediction (pre-1500 BC win) or someone else will do it for you! :lol:

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Care to share what tech path you used etc? Was it AH->BW->writing->myst->poly->pri->mas->mono->theo(oracle)->alpha or something else? What leader did you play? Quin of bismark? What opponents did you have? Ghandi, Zara, Ramess and Hatty? What map did you play? Boreal? Pangea?
 
A "test game" for me is a valid HoF submission (I submitted the 1325), but I usually play quickly and on a lame map (few forests in my case) just to get the feel for it.

I just got the Vote pre-1600 BC, but didn't win it. Someone will break 1600.

Qin and Bis are both strong. Bis is best, but has the problem that it's hard to find good deer starts. Since I wanted to quickly find some playable maps, I used Qin.

Since the goal is to win on t95, you have to have writing before t45 if you want the +2 relations for OB. Therefore, I go AH->writing, then like you wrote.

Almost any map will work. I think I did Pang, but I used IceAge in the Immortal gauntlet recently. Terra, and InlandSea always work nicely.

I toss out Ghandi and I play against Roos.
 
What good is roos? He doesn't have any obvious advantages i can see over ghandi...
 
What good is roos? He doesn't have any obvious advantages i can see over ghandi...

You may have a point, but I've played a lot of diplo and he always seems to vote for me. I know he will at only +7, not sure who else does.

I also would rather have the egyptians get the religions. However, if Gandhi is a big religion spreader, maybe he's better.

Doesn't really matter I suppose.
 
Care to share what tech path you used etc? Was it AH->BW->writing->myst->poly->pri->mas->mono->theo(oracle)->alpha or something else? What leader did you play? Quin of bismark? What opponents did you have? Ghandi, Zara, Ramess and Hatty? What map did you play? Boreal? Pangea?

Huts:

First of all, you want Huts on, just to have a chance at getting a free Technology that is useful for RL DV, but mainly to get extra Gold (Coins) to finance 100% Research while supporting more than the 5-6 free units an early City can support. (Your City will probably not grow large enough to support 6 free units, so count on only 5 free units.) This extra initial Gold will allow one to support extra Workers and Missionaries at 1 Gpt per unit beyond the free 5-6 units.

Technology path:

I would omit Animal Husbandry, [EDIT] since it's not required for a RL DV game. I know some players think its required for Epic speed to get Writing and Open Borders very early, but do you really need +2 Diplomacy versus +1 Diplomacy for Open Borders? I think not. [end EDIT]

There are two major alternative optimal Technology paths (they all start with BW). I will specify the Technology paths complete with common starting Technologies, since different Empires will usually have different starting Technologies (just ignore those your chosen Leader starts with):

Bee-line Bronze Working, bee-line Writing via Priesthood, bee-line Monotheism, complete The Oracle, finish with Alphabet:

Mining -> Bronze Working -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> (start The Oracle) -> Writing -> Masonry -> Monotheism -> Theology via The Oracle -> Alphabet

As WastinTime has already noted many times before, this path may not complete Writing by turn 45, which is important to allow 50 turns of Open Borders to gain +2 Diplomacy by t95 for a t96 Win (1600 BC).

Bee-line Bronze Working, bee-line Priesthood, bee-line Monotheism, bee-line Writing, complete The Oracle, finish with Alphabet:

Mining -> Bronze Working -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> (start The Oracle) -> Masonry -> Monotheism -> Writing -> Theology via The Oracle -> Alphabet

This Technology path allows only +1 Diplomacy for Open Borders, since Writing is founded far too late, but allows Organized Religion sooner for help building The Oracle and to gain the Favorite Civic bonus with Hatsheput and Ramesses II siginifcantly earlier, assuming they complete Monotheism and run their Favourite Civic that early as well. Simply sharing the Organized Religion Favorite Civic with either of these two Leaders for a long enough number of turns plus a few other Diplomatic bonuses can be enough to get the RL DV.

This is also a good Technology path to leverage Marble not long after starting The Oracle. (Priesthood and Masonry can be reversed in the research order to allow the Marble build bonus throughout the construction of The Oracle. Priesthood can be completed while 2-3 Workers build a Marble Quarry.)

Leader:

As WastinTime has already mentioned, the most popular Leaders for Deity RL DV are Qin Shi Huang and Bismarck. Both have the Industrious trait which most people consider critical for building The Apostolic Palace. Bismarck also has the Expansive trait which builds Workers from Hammers at +25%, which essentially means getting five Workers for the price of four Workers. Note that this Expansive bonus does not apply to excess food that is applied to Worker builds, so shift your Citizens to maximize Hammers while building Workers with the Expensive trait in effect. The disadvantage to using Bismarck is Deer (Hunting one of his initial Technologies) is relatively rare in Maps with both good Mining resources and vast numbers of Forests. Boreal would seem to be a good Map and it is for Deer, but the Gems tiles lack Food and often have a Forest on top that must be chopped before the Gems can be Mined.

There are alternative Leaders, but they are all works in progress as far as I know. Focus on Leaders with Industrious, Expansive and possibly Financial traits. Pacal II is promising due to all his starting Technologies (Mining and Mysticism) being required for an efficient RL DV, but I'm not sure his lack of the Industrious trait can be effectively compensated for.

Best Opponents:

For RL DV, always pick the minimum number of Opponents. This Gauntlet requires a Small map, so the minimum number of Opponents will be four.

Since you will be running Organized Religion, often right after you complete Monotheism, for most of the game, you will want Opponents whose Favorite Civic is Organized Religion. Thus, Hatsheput and Ramesses II are at the top of the best Opponents list for any Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory game, including this Gauntlet.

The other two Opponents should be almost as obvious. There are only two BtS Leaders with a hidden +2 Diplomatic bonus in favor of the Player. They are Gandhi and Zara Yaqob.

Avoid: Brennus and Suryavarman II also have Organized Religion as their Favorite Civic, but their Peaceweight is so low (0 and 1 respectively) that everyone with high Peaceweights them hates, and they become Worst Enemies, thus making them unsuitable for a RL DV game.

Maps:

Any Map where all Civs start on the same Continent is excellent. Any flat map is very good, but they don't have a Sea Level that effectively reduces the number of tiles when the Sea Level is set to High. For this reason, I recommand single Continent maps (including Terra) surrounded by Ocean over any flat maps with no surrounding Ocean.

Avoid Navies: Any map that requires a Navy is bad, since building a Navy will cost you a significant number of Hammers and consequently turns that can't be compensated for. Galleys also require Fishing and Sailing, both of which are not free, regardless of chosen Leader. Maps that require Caravels are the worst, since they will also require Iron Working, Metal Casting, Compass, Machinery and Optics.

In my opinion, Pangaea is the absolute best Map for RL DV. It has everything you need to win RL DV fast. It has numerous Mining resources for fast research. Vast numbers of Forests to chop; only exceeded by the Boreal map whose limitations have already been mentioned above.

The Terra map has far fewer Mining resources and Forests, but it still can be used. Expect to run Map Finder much longer to compensate for the lower resources and also far larger map size to accommodate the New World. Also, I really don't think the Old World on Terra is really significantly smaller than the only "World" on Pangaea.

For Maps with a meaningful Sea Level, always use High Sea Level to reduce the Size of the Continent where all Civs start, effectively making them closer to each other.

It may be best to start in the middle of the (starting) Continent, making the distance to all Civs equally short. Ideally, your Civ will become the Hub of the Wheel of all remaining Civs such that you share a Border with all other Civs. For this Gauntlet and any Small Pangaea or similar one Continent/Flat map this should be relatively easy to achieve.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I also would rather have the egyptians get the religions. However, if Gandhi is a big religion spreader, maybe he's better.

Excellent point! It may be better to give Hatshepsut and Ramesses II the first shot at completing Polytheism first, since the winner will often continue to Monotheism. If either Hatshepsut or Ramesses II wins the race to Monotheism, its likely they will adopt their Favorite Civic, Organized Religion, shortly thereafter.

Also, Gandhi starts with Mysticism and assuming none of the other Opponents do, he will get a Religion, assuming he researches a Religious Technology first. So, perhaps Gandhi should be replaced. Personally, I would replace Gandhi with Lincoln rather than Roosevelt. I'm not saying Roosevelt is bad in a RL DV game. I just don't have experience playing against Roosevelt in a RL DV game. If I read the game data relevant to Diplomacy correctly, Lincoln and Roosevelt are quite similar, but Lincoln seems to provide maybe a total +1 Diplomacy edge over Roosevelt, all things considered. This is from perusal of the data I compiled months ago when I determined the best Opponents for RL DV and it could be flawed.

The nice thing about both Roosevelt and Lincoln is neither one is especially interested in founding Religions which allows Hatshepsut or Ramesses II to found them and start running OR sooner.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Well, I submitted a pre-1500.

Another game I got a 1700 BC vote, but didn't win.
Time for a break. Maybe change up the AI or map.
 
Well, I submitted a pre-1500.

OK, clearly your prediction of the winning date was far better than mine. You didn't have to prove it yourself though, I'm sure someone else would have obliged. :)

Another game I got a 1700 BC vote, but didn't win.
Time for a break. Maybe change up the AI or map.

1700 BC at Epic speed is turn 93 and a potential 1675 BC and win on turn 94!

The current best Deity, Small, Marathon RL DV date is 1880 BC (turn 162). I didn't think that Epic speed scaled that well with Marathon speed.

Are you still using Qin?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Opponents:The other two Opponents should be almost as obvious. There are only two BtS Leaders with a hidden +2 Diplomatic bonus in favor of the Player. They are Gandhi and Zara Yaqob.
Where can I found this kind of information, the only source I have is this spreadsheet
BTSLeaderAI_313
I might be stupid but I can't event found the threshold for when they become friendly (+7 for ross?) :lol:.

Edit I found the hidden +2 Diplomatic bonus = iBaseAttitude

But I can't find threshold for Ross (+7)

And how about numbers of turns between AP and first election (and between elections)?
 
I think it may be an omen that today is not a good Civ IV day. Ghandi DOW me just before the religious vote came up. I had the votes to win, but only one warrior against his horse archer ended the game one turn prematurely. :mad:
 
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