G-Minor 70

[Robert Smith]

I don't know if this will help, but generally I don't use gems for religious victory at this level - I find gold with good food is what's needed because of the hammers. You don't have much time to grow because you have to build the workers and gems just don't quite seem to cut it.

I love gems on grass/plains (or even better gems & gold on on hill) esp. when I play with Bismark (hard to find deer). With Qin I prefer gold

Edit: I believe 2 commerce resources and 1 farm Resource is a minimum

My rules for Qin is very easy
Bonus Groups - Farm Resource - 1
Bonus Groups - Mining Resource - 2

If I use the map or not depends on number of forest

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Hey Bob, you don't need 2 commerce resources. Boys don't cry.

 

[Robert Smith]

Hey Bob, you don't need 2 commerce resources. Boys don't cry.

Three Imaginary Boys Jumping Someone Else's Train in A Forest, This is not a Lullaby it's a Love song, Let's Go To Bed. Friday I'm in Love !!!

 

[Robert Smith]

I just got the Vote pre-1600 BC, but didn't win it. Someone will break 1600.

I agree. As I have wrote before I love your comments I don't believe anybody thought it was possible. I was looking at the Ad-Hoc Query, consider 1000BC was fantastic, and now I have a 1275 BC win, which was a safe game. It is so fun with players thinking "Out-of-the box". Someone has to say it out load. It is possible!!

Writing Turn 57 (2575 BC)
Oracle Turn 70 (2250 BC)
AP Turn 93 (1675 BC)
DV Election Turn 108 (1300 BC) => 1275 BC

No of turns between AP and Oracle should be less when 10, but I took a safe game:

1. built 2 missioners without chopping before chopping AP.
2. wanted to get +2 from open border in case of xxx. I didn't get the +2 bonus, I guess I miscalculate one turn...
3. wanted to finish alpha for gifting theology

3 of 4 was voting for me, hatty & ramses was friendly and also Zara with the hidden +2, only ross didn't vote. I will replace him with Gandhi (also +2)

Anyway, a none safe game with 10 turns between oracle and AP gives you a T95 win. And with a bit of luck:

• share religion instead of no-state
• BW from goody hut
• +3 event boost

Spread rel to size 1 cities except from your voting target.

Since the goal is to win on t95, you have to have writing before t45 if you want the +2 relations for OB. Therefore, I go AH->writing

I guess you will need a lot of forest if you not going to research writing (~8 turns ~2 forest inside BFC) while building oracle. When adding AH to research do you need 3 mining resources?

 

[WastinTime]

When adding AH to research do you need 3 mining sources?

No, 2 mining is plenty. This strategy will let you win more elections. It is a lot less frustrating. It's a "safe" way to play. You should probably gamble and skip AH. That's my plan if I play again. Probably have to take out Roos and use Gandhi instead. Roos needs to have the +2 OB.

My 1700BC vote was with no AH, but again, I lost the vote.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I think maybe it works this way...
(like Misotu said) but then if you manage to spread TAP religion to the last civ on turn 15, 16, 17. I think you can still get a delayed DV election. Not sure on that. I always try to get them spread in < 14 turns.

As Misotu mentioned, I didn't get the condition for the extra 4 turns right. If you fail to spread TAP Religion to all Civs within 14 turns of TAP completion, an "emergency" (that's simply what I've personally called the unwanted 4t turn delay, but that doesn't mean its not an accurate characterization) Resident Election takes place.

I recall at least once failing to spread TAP Religion to all Civs 14 turns after building TAP and completing the Religion spread well before 18 turns after. However, the "emergency" Res. Election was still held rather than any RL DV vote as I recall.

Like WastinTime, I simply finish TAP Religion spread within 14 turns (Epic speed) after completing TAP and win the RL DV. As long as you do this, you don't have to worry about the reason for the 4 turn delay or whether the RL DV comes up right after it (again it doesn't as I recall).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kuningas]

My first Deity win
1425BC With Qin. Thanks for tips.

Oracle on turn 73. AP on turn 89.

 

[oyzar]

I always get owned by the ap religion spreading to zara and him getting way too many votes for me to overcome after he converts, anyone else have this problem? how do i deal with it? just try again?

I am playing as bismark but i've yet to see a single deer start, maybe i should switch to quin...

 

[Mesix]

Don't spread the AP religion to an AI player that has not adopted a state religion. When you do spread the AP religion, pick a city that has a low population and already has his chosen religion. Then the AP religion will not be his dominant faith and hopefully the low population city will not build missionaries to spread it to the rest of his empire.

 

[oyzar]

It was autospread... I know how to spread it manually (always in this case ment two times, once he actually got a religion first, but it autospread twice and he converted ). I just got 1425 BC, bismark with corn, no AH, but i teched AG, Quin might be better after all... I even popped masonery from a hut.

 

[BananaLee]

I've never won a Diplomatic or Religious win before - and I've never played on anything higher than Monarch.
Nonetheless, I'll endeavour to attack this when I get back from Uni Games next week.

Just a question for the Gauntlet Quattro challenge, do I have to do a Major and Minor which are running concurrently or any old Maj/Min will do?

 

[oyzar]

To fulfill the major/minor requirement you have to submit a game before the deadline in a major/minor i belive.

 

[Mesix]

They don't have to be won concurrently. You can win this Minor Gauntlet and then win a Major in a month or two to meet that requirement. Think of the Quatromaster challenge requirements as a checklist. As you finish games, they are checked off the list. It doesn't matter when you check the boxes, only that they are checked.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Missed t97 (1575 BC) Win:

I just missed a turn 97 (1575 BC) win with Bismarck. Hatshepsut was about 10 Missionary turns away and a non-TAP Religion had still not spread to her, so my free Christian Missionary just sat there, because her smallest City was 3P and I was sure my Diplomacy wasn't good enough beat her 6 votes in a two way RL DV vote.

The RL DV vote would have been on turn 96, but I failed to convert all Civs to TAP Religion, so this cycle was delayed 4 turns. I still couldn't risk converting Hatshepsut, so I had to win TAP Resident Election a second time on turn 101 (vote on t100) which was easy.

On turn 85, Christianity had spontaneously spread to Zara Yaqob's 1P City which seemed to be good luck. (He already had a State Religion.) One less Missionary to build and TAP Religion to spread. However, that 1P City grew quickly.

So I had Missionaries waiting to convert Mansa Musa and Hatshsepsut. Mansa Musa's worst enemy was Ramesses II. Ramesses II was the only Civ within 10 turns (acually right on my border 'stealing' my Forests) of my Capital and shared Organized Religion, so he was my RL DV ticket. Thus, I didn't stop trading with Ramesses II and built up a trade with enemy -3 stacking penalty with Mansa. I had to ensure that Mansa Musa got the minimum number of TAP votes, since he would never give me a RL DV vote. (Also, Mansa Musa often spreads Religions to all his Cities, so it can be RL DV suicide to spread TAP to him earlier when he won't give you a RL DV vote. On the other hand, if MM loves you, then spread TAP Religion to him early and he will eventually spread it to all his Cities and hand you the RL DV on a gold platter.)

So still no non-TAP Religion spread to Hatshepsut. So I decided I'll have to do it myself. Judaism spread to me on t86, so after turn 100, I started building a Jewish Missionary to send to Hatshepsut. There is just enough time to build the Missionary (4 turns) and move it into one of Hatshepsut's Cities and convert it. Buddhism spread there on turn 112, so I didn't need to bother after all.

So, on turn 113 (one turn before the second potential RL DV vote), before I knew that Hatshepsut would convert to Buddhism, I spread Christianity to the smallest of Hatshepsut's Cities, the Capital Thebes with 4P. On the same turn, I gifted the Jewish Missionary to Hatshepsut near one of her 5P Cities that was 1t short of converting it.

Still on turn 113, I notice that I had left my Christian Missionary just outside of Mansa Musa's 1P Hill City with no roads to it. Big mistake! It would take one turn to move it onto the Hill City and the next turn to convert the 1P City, but the DL DV should come up on turn 114, but it won't without Mansa Musa converted to TAP Religion. So, in desperation, I gifted the Christian Missionary to Mansa Musa on t113 in his 1P Hill City (with no roads). Will he convert his 1P Hill City with my gifted Christian Missionary in his part of turn 113 and trigger the RL DV option on turn 114?

No, I missed my second chance via a stupid, careless mistake. The RL DV option did not come up!

However, on turn 115 (one turn behind schedule), the RL DV option comes up! I noticed that Mansa Musa used my gifted Christian Missionary not in his 1P City that I had foolishly hoped, but in his 9P Capital Timbuktu! Nothing can be done about it, so we vote and we hope that +6 with Zara Yaqob is enough for him to vote for us. It is. Thus, a missed t97 (1575 BC) win becomes a t116 (1100 BC) win.

The Meaning of Grace:

My mistake of having my Christian Missionary wait outside a 1P Hill City without a road till one turn past the conversion deadline has proven WastinTime assertion:

I think maybe it works this way...
(like Misotu said) but then if you manage to spread TAP religion to the last civ on turn 15, 16, 17. I think you can still get a delayed DV election. Not sure on that. I always try to get them spread in < 14 turns.

To clarify, the RL DV option comes up on turn 14 of the TAP 14 turn cycle, if TAP Religion has been spread to all Civs by turn 13 of the 14 turn cycle. If not, you are given a Grace (double meaning) period of 4 turns to complete TAP conversion of all Civs in the World. If this conversion is completed on turn 14, 15, 16, or 17 of the Grace period (extended) 15-18 turn cycle, the RL DV option occurs on the following turn, 15, 16, 17 or 18 respectively. If you fall from Grace (can't convert all Civs to TAP Religion within the Grace period), you must prove again that you are worthy of being TAP Resident via a special, emergency election on turn 18 of the extended cycle.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[oyzar]

Tried a one gold + irrigated corn + one floodplain + settle on marble start. It didn't have a lot of trees either. I didn't tech fast enough to get alpha so i ddin't get it in time for the vote in 1500. I guess you need at least two mining resources.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My first Deity win
1425BC With Qin. Thanks for tips.

Oracle on turn 73. AP on turn 89.

Congratulations! Very impressive date (1425 BC = t103). That's not even considering that its your win Deity win ever!



Sun Tzu Wu

 

[cabert]

Tried a one gold + irrigated corn + one floodplain + settle on marble start. It didn't have a lot of trees either. I didn't tech fast enough to get alpha so i ddin't get it in time for the vote in 1500. I guess you need at least two mining resources.

agreed,
and the choice of opponents is crucial.
I had a irrigated corn + 2 gold start with qin, that went pretty well, but darn had worst enemies, and everyone asked me to stop trading with him. I got a large number of negatives from this.

 

[oyzar]

who is darn? Are anyone playing with other opponents than zara ramsses ghandi and hatty?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

who is darn? Are anyone playing with other opponents than zara ramsses ghandi and hatty?

The Best Four Peaceful Opponents:

These (Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Gandhi and Zara Yaqob) are the Opponents that I originally suggested. Please allow me to explain further why they are ideal for any Small Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory via Peaceful Coexistence:

Hatshepsut: Gives diplomatic bonus for favorite civic, Organized Religion. +1 Hidden Attitude bonus and Peace Weight of 9. Focus on Religion and Culture, both of which motivate Hatshepsut to research Religion founding Technologies and spread Religions, at least within her own Cultural Boundaries.

Ramesses II: Gives diplomatic bonus for favorite civic, Organized Religion. 0 Hidden Attitude bonus and Peace Weight of 6. Focus on Culture which motivates Ramesses II to research Religion founding Technologies and spread Religions, at least within his own Cultural Boundaries.

Gandhi: +2 Hidden Attitude bonus and Peace Weight of 10. Focus on Culture which motivates Gandhi to research Religion founding Technologies and spread Religions, at least within his own Cultural Boundaries.

Zara Yaqob: +2 Hidden Attitude bonus and Peace Weight of 6. Focus on Religion which motivates Zara Yaqob to research Religion founding Technologies and spread Religions, at least within his own Cultural Boundaries.

As a group, they have Peace Weights ranging from 6-10, so they are unlikely to hate each other enough to start a War. However, there is a remote chance of some of them having a "Worst Enemy", making trade with that Civ Diplomatically painful and the offended Civ may make occasional demands on you to Stop trading with his/her Worst Enemy.

Alternative Opponents and Shared War Strategy:

[EDIT] (Untested and I may not even try it for Gm-70.) [End EDIT]

As implied in the above paragraph, there may be an advantage to dropping either Gandhi or Zara Yaqob and adding a Civ with a very low Peace Weight for the other three to hate so much that a War is started. After spreading TAP Religion to this Hated Civ, declare War on the other side to gain the Shared War Diplomatic bonus from each War Ally. Note that you should spread TAP Religion to this Civ before the War, to a 1P City if possible. While at War, this Hated Civ is extremely unlikely to spread TAP Religion via Missionaries to his/her other Cities, so losing his/her (1) Vote in the RL DV Election will not affect the Results much. To maximize the Peace Weight differential, it makes sense to drop Zara Yaqob (PW 6) rather than Gandhi (PW 10).

Low Peace Weight Civs with Military goals and no Cultural goals and no Religious goals that will be Hated (They are unlikely to Found a Religion, so you will either need spontaneous non-TAP Religion spread, other Civ non-TAP Religion spread or spread a non-TAP Religion to this Civ yourself):

PW0: Alexander, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Ragnar

PW1: Tokugawa

PW2: Boudica, Hannibal, Shaka, Stalin

Low Peace Weight Civs with Military goals and either Cultural goals or Religious goals (or both) that will be Hated (They are likely to Found a Religion, but will be too busy with War to spread it, effectively hording it. In the case they don't Found a Religion, you will either need spontaneous non-TAP Religion spread, other Civ non-TAP Religion spread or spread a non-TAP Religion to this Civ yourself):

PW0: Brennus, Montezuma

PW1: Kubai Khan

PW2: Catherine, Gilgamesh, and Mehmed II.

The latter group is better, assuming they found an early Religion and convert to it making them even more Hated and thus War more likely.

In any case, avoid (PW2) Pacal II and Suryavarman II who have Cultural goals and no Military goals. The lack of Military goals implies low chance of War, but still high chance of "Worst Enemy". So these two Low Peace Weight Civs should clearly be avoided entirely when employing this Shared War Strategy.

If you use a Low Peace Weight Opponent to start a War to get the Shared War bonus, try to get Open Borders with it first and send a TAP Religion Missionary. Just before you declare War on it, have the TAP Religion Missionary convert one of its Low Population Cities with NO other Religions (to avoid TAP Religion conversion failure).

Good luck with this alternative Shared War Strategy that adds a Diplomatic bonus for Shared War before Alphabet is available for Lopsided Trades or Shared Technologies bonuses (best with Mansa Musa as he needs only 5 Techs from you).

Other Strategies may be out there for you to discover:

There may be other strategies where replacing either Gandhi or Zara Yaqob with another High or Medium Peace Weight Civ might make sense ... These obviously will not involve Shared War, except unexpectedly.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

Joao is a possibility as Monarcy might be available for shared civics and he is quite peaceful (peace weight of 6 IIRC).