Game options review

[Arakhor]

Why start a game on Warlord if you actually want to play on Deity? I suppose you could change the threshold to 10 turns a go or something like that, but it does seem rather odd.

 

[Rwn]

@Rwn & Arakhor: I'm also in this discussion, asuming you have already read my previous post on the subject

Link to post 7

For some reason I completely missed that post, sorry about that

 

[Faustmouse]

Why start a game on Warlord if you actually want to play on Deity? I suppose you could change the threshold to 10 turns a go or something like that, but it does seem rather odd.

In Bug you can set the AI level to whatever you want. You can tell it: you shall be deity now! And it is.

 

[Toffer90]

Why start a game on Warlord if you actually want to play on Deity? I suppose you could change the threshold to 10 turns a go or something like that, but it does seem rather odd.

Because I hate that the AI start with 2 cities, more units to clean out all tribal huts on the continent, before I get to build my first wanderer. Getting a wanderer on eternity takes at least 30-40 turns. Also the free techs bothers me but not as much.

But would what you suggested allow the AI to reach settler difficulty or would they too be stuck at deity (or noble if AI difficulty is turned off) ?

 

[Arakhor]

I don't think that the AI is limited by your settings, unless you set it to be so, but as Faustmouse says, you can always instantly change your own setting at any time.

 

[Toffer90]

I'm pretty sure the AI is limited to the MinMax settings. and this means I need to have the setting on settler-Noble and change my own difficulty to deity every time flexible difficulty kicks in.

increasing difficulty has a purpose and I think there are many players not on this forum that uses it. It doesn't bother me if it becomes invisible as I know how to turn it on despite; but not every regular player of C2C knows how to do this.

 

[Rwn]

Because I hate that the AI start with 2 cities, more units to clean out all tribal huts on the continent, before I get to build my first wanderer. Getting a wanderer on eternity takes at least 30-40 turns. Also the free techs bothers me but not as much.

Ah, then it's more a problem of how the different difficulty settings are defined rather than a need for that option I've been intending to do a proper "no AI head start" modmod, I guess it'll help.

 

[Arakhor]

I think some work on the difficulty menu was done in AND2. You could ask 45°38'N if you wanted to be sure.

 

[Thrain II]

I am enjoying my first C2C game and have some issues with the options. Maybe someone can help me?

1) Can I undo the Wonders limit of 2 per city once I have started a game with that setting?
2) Is there a way to make the unit specifics visible when moving the cursor over a stack of units? It lists the units in a very condensed form and I cannot see their characteristics, such as + x% against x
3) Hitting the ctrl button doesn't do anything when moving the cursor to a unit. How can I check their specifics?

Thanks!

 

[Toffer90]

Ah, then it's more a problem of how the different difficulty settings are defined rather than a need for that option I've been intending to do a proper "no AI head start" modmod, I guess it'll help.

Your modmod would only solve one of the two problems I have with removing increasing difficulty as an option.

The game option also enables me to use flexible difficulty on the AI to make them more competitive when falling behind to me and other AI's; without it affecting my difficulty, which is determined by the more unflexible increasing difficulty option.

 

[Toffer90]

I am enjoying my first C2C game and have some issues with the options. Maybe someone can help me?

1) Can I undo the Wonders limit of 2 per city once I have started a game with that setting?
2) Is there a way to make the unit specifics visible when moving the cursor over a stack of units? It lists the units in a very condensed form and I cannot see their characteristics, such as + x% against x
3) Hitting the ctrl button doesn't do anything when moving the cursor to a unit. How can I check their specifics?

Thanks!

1 - The limit increases with the culture level up to at least 6 (could be more, don't remember).
2 - Do you mean on units that isn't yours?
3 - I guess it can be a bit wonky, try it on the small unit icons, the ones that list all units on a tile, that always work.

 

[Rwn]

I am enjoying my first C2C game and have some issues with the options. Maybe someone can help me?

1) Can I undo the Wonders limit of 2 per city once I have started a game with that setting?
2) Is there a way to make the unit specifics visible when moving the cursor over a stack of units? It lists the units in a very condensed form and I cannot see their characteristics, such as + x% against x
3) Hitting the ctrl button doesn't do anything when moving the cursor to a unit. How can I check their specifics?

Thanks!

1) The wonder limit depends on the city culture level, so it'll increase in time. Still, if you want to have unlimited wonders, I *think* there's a way to change options mid-game but can't remember how...
2) No idea...
3) Sometimes it seems it doesn't work, try pressing ctrl again and/or moving your cursor then back.

 

[Yudishtira]

I am enjoying my first C2C game and have some issues with the options. Maybe someone can help me?

1) Can I undo the Wonders limit of 2 per city once I have started a game with that setting?
2) Is there a way to make the unit specifics visible when moving the cursor over a stack of units? It lists the units in a very condensed form and I cannot see their characteristics, such as + x% against x
3) Hitting the ctrl button doesn't do anything when moving the cursor to a unit. How can I check their specifics?

Thanks!

All options can be changed in WorldBuilder. This can cause problems, but if you change this one early enough I expect it will work fine. However, there is no 2 per city wonder limit. The limit goes up with every culture category the city attains. By the top culture level the limit is about 12.

Select the stack and mouseover the unit's button at the bottom of the screen.
Hold CTRL down to see combat modifiers. Hold ALT down to see non-combat stats (eg. cargo space). Hold SHIFT down to show unitcombats aka combat and sub-combat classes.

 

[Thrain II]

Thanks for your replies!

1) I didn't know the wonder limit increases over time. Then it won't be necessary to remove that limitation I guess. National wonders is always limited to 2!?

2+3) I managed to see the details of a unit when pressing cntr and moving the cursor back and forth. That's a bit clumsy... Is there any way to display unit features permanently (when moving the cursor over a unit) as in the original game? I went through all the options but couldn't find anything.

Thanks.

 

[Toffer90]

Thanks for your replies!

1) I didn't know the wonder limit increases over time. Then it won't be necessary to remove that limitation I guess. National wonders is always limited to 2!?

2+3) I managed to see the details of a unit when pressing cntr and moving the cursor back and forth. That's a bit clumsy... Is there any way to display unit features permanently (when moving the cursor over a unit) as in the original game? I went through all the options but couldn't find anything.

Thanks.

1 - It increases too to 20-30 or so.

2 - game engine limitation. it's the same when viewing traits when mousing over the hud flag (close to end turn button) with shift held down.

 

[Yudishtira]

Thanks for your replies!

1) I didn't know the wonder limit increases over time. Then it won't be necessary to remove that limitation I guess. National wonders is always limited to 2!?

2+3) I managed to see the details of a unit when pressing cntr and moving the cursor back and forth. That's a bit clumsy... Is there any way to display unit features permanently (when moving the cursor over a unit) as in the original game? I went through all the options but couldn't find anything.

Thanks.

1. Yes the National Wonder limit increases, in fact it goes to around double the WW limit.

2. No you can't currently get the vanilla way back. A lot of the time, with all the extra subcombats etc., only a small part of the info fitted on the screen that way anyway. I think you'll find it's better this way, although it would be nice to have the option so you could prove that to yourself...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

2+3) I managed to see the details of a unit when pressing cntr and moving the cursor back and forth. That's a bit clumsy... Is there any way to display unit features permanently (when moving the cursor over a unit) as in the original game? I went through all the options but couldn't find anything.

Thanks.

2. No you can't currently get the vanilla way back. A lot of the time, with all the extra subcombats etc., only a small part of the info fitted on the screen that way anyway. I think you'll find it's better this way, although it would be nice to have the option so you could prove that to yourself...

The basic problem is that for some reason the developers set up those hover overs to work in python and then did them in the dll. So when we (TB) tried to use the python stuff it did not work and he had to also do it in the dll. It is on my list of things to figure out in the python.

 

[Thunderbrd]

GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES could be either UNSUPPORTED or UNSUPPORTED IF OFF, both approach seem valid, but I'd really have one or the other (rather than it being a "real option") as it changes the game balance.

It actually doesn't change it by all that much. Usually the building comes in around the time your culture does unless you're really pushing culture.

I don't really know what to do with GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE. Having a difficulty option in addition to the difficulty setting is rather confusing; intuitively I thought that it scaled the whole tree (so that Nightmare/Settler was harder than Base/Deity), but I learn here that its main effect is adding two to the difficulty level. Wouldn't it be simpler to just add two difficulty levels after Deity and let the player choose only a difficulty setting? If it also changes other things (such as lowering gold income), then Nightmare mode should be more explicit and do just that...

It's not JUST 2 levels harder - that's just the baseline. It was setup that way but has been evolving to some significant differences, like with Education, which balances to the normal game up to Noble then starts gaining pop penalties as the difficulty increases, at a faster rate than the normal game difficulty chart.

Admittedly, the alternative of adding two levels beyond deity and removing the option would be suitable I'm sure. This option has been a game testing zone more than anything. It's MUCH easier to select an option than it is to try to integrate a modmod fileset so if you REALLY want something to get tested, set it up as an option.

GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS should be off and invisible until someone re-evaluates and re-balances it so that it achieves its intention. At the moment it can actually change things to be the opposite of what it advertises.

No espionage is a base BtS option isn't it? I believe it works just fine and was fully integrated (it's pretty simple). I just don't use it so I don't know.

Limited and Pick religions are adapted to C2C but there's those who don't like one or the other or both passionately. I agree visible and off but I don't think an 'unsupported' note is necessary. Perhaps an unadvised for new players note.

I don't see a reason for Personalized Map to be even visible. From what I understand, the main point of it is bugged out bad enough to basically lose the option entirely after you save and restart. If the goal here is to eliminate options, I don't think anyone will whine over this one being removed until it can be completely repaired, which the best minds have tried to do and have not yet been able to. I think. If they did, then you've got the right setting.

To add the option 'Revolutions' you could simply add a new Revolutions option and make it have a prerequisite of No Revolutions being OFF. Then set No Revolutions ON and INVISIBLE so that by selecting the option 'Revolutions', which can be seen as a player, it swaps the assumption established by the hidden No Revolutions option. Would only end up confusing future modders and those trying to change options in mid play with the worldbuilder. But the rest of us would understand why it was done this way (to do otherwise would require significant C++ coding effort.)

Regarding GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION, I'm not completely sure I understood what people said here: it worked but recent changes have introduced bugs that are currently fixed, is that right?

There is a flaw in the tag programming for local rev index adjustments so that the local tag is still a national tag. Additionally, there are highly suspected crashpoints and OOS errors located within its coding. It's a very difficult mod for a python or c++ programmer to work on unless they have a mastery of both because it's playing out heavily on both ends. Our ability to fix some issues there has been limited and apparently the team that created it has done massive improvements but it would be tough to simply port them in and one of them hates that we include even an old version of rev so we're not getting any help from them. Thankfully, it wasn't all that broken to start with. But the tag issue... I'd fix it but I wouldn't know how to fix it on the python side.


I've been thinking long and hard about the merging the combat mods suggestion. The intention was always to eventually find a way to restructure the option selection chart itself somewhat but for NOW it makes sense to merge them into an Advanced Combat Mod option and turn SM Uncut off and invisible in the process (though some may complain, I think those that would COULD be guided to the xml as it's a modder level disagreement I don't think players would tend to care as much about and if the rare one mentioned something they could be told how to get the effect they're looking for.) One reason NOT to merge them, however, would be to allow a player to adapt to one level of complexity in a game before selecting the next and adapting to that one. It's intended to help them ramp in rather than be slammed with all of it at once. There's, as you see, a lot more combat mods planned. It also helped me to define parameters of a given option for development progress. And to help keep conversations on those mods focused.

But if we go that way I won't complain. The way to do it would be to set both of them to OFF and INVISIBLE. Then make a third option that is visible. That option would have a prereq of both fight or flight and size matters, making the game automatically turn those two options both on if Advanced Combat is selected.

The only time I have played with Religious Disabling on it kept removing the religion I wanted to convert to. Very irritating.

It turns off the buildings of any religions you haven't converted to. So to turn ON buildings, convert to that religion. It shouldn't stop you from doing so or restrict the fact that the religion does actively exist in a city, just whether it has any effect by being there.

As for the AI removing religions, it only hurts the AI. The more religions they can gather the stronger an opponent they are. Inquisitions was made for the player, especially those that did not like religions in the game at all. And there are many out there that have that mindset. I'm of the opposite mindset. And always check the box for NO Inquisitions.

Inquisitions benefit the AI greatly if Rev and Religious Disabling is on, all the more if Limited Religions is on. Having more than one religion in a city is harmful to the rev index (though hardly noticeable unless its a holy city with multiple religions founded there - one reason Rev can make Divine Prophets a little more interesting). And with Religious Disabling, there is no benefit to a civ with multiple religions in its cities. They can only benefit from one at a time. Not like Limited Religions where you can benefit from more but can only ever found a religion if you don't own a city that already is a Holy City.

Additionally, a Religious Victory, if I recall correctly, is achieved when Inquisitors have eradicated all religious in all cities except your state religion. With No Inquisitions ON you end up being unable to work with a Religious Victory. I could be wrong... this is going off of the source of the Religious Victory concept being the Gods of Old mod that shipped with the original BtS Vanilla.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@T-brd,
Well if Inquisition is tied so heavily into REV (and I knew it was from the REV team) then why not just add it ti the REV Option. If you Turn On REV you also Turn ON Inquisitions. Then players such as myself who use Neither only have to check or uncheck 1 box. Makes it simpler in my book.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@T-brd,
Well if Inquisition is tied so heavily into REV (and I knew it was from the REV team) then why not just add it ti the REV Option. If you Turn On REV you also Turn ON Inquisitions. Then players such as myself who use Neither only have to check or uncheck 1 box. Makes it simpler in my book.

JosEPh

It helps with Rev but it is about Religious victory. I am not sure it is part of Rev.