Game options review

Thunderbrd · May 30, 2015

After thinking a bit more about it, maybe a more consensual solution would be to keep more options visible, but clearly mention in their name that show up in the menu something like "BETA - Option X" or "UNSUPPORTED - Option Y" and keep them at the end of the option list. So players would not select them inadvertantly, but they'd still show in the game menu so no need to go in the xml file.

This would be a very useful approach. Wouldn't reduce the amount of options much but it would at least make the options more informed for players.

I'm all for evaluating them in a block of a few at a time... gets to be too many to look at them all at once for us I think.

Thunderbrd · May 30, 2015

Arakhor said:
Unless Fight or Flight and Size Matters actually work properly for players and AI, it should never be hard-wired into the game. (This goes for any mechanic, really.)

This gets into a fuzzy grey line.

Fight or Flight works perfectly for players and AI. No issues there I don't feel. Perhaps a few things COULD be done to make the AI more advanced with it but nothing more than along the lines of a player figuring out some new tricks himself.

Size Matters has an AI. It works to bother players that haven't mastered the option. It is not a very developed nor advanced AI.

But then the entire AI for the whole game is nearly equally as flawed when it comes to strategy.

So at what point do we say 'it works'? Surround and Destroy has absolutely no AI but the function has no issues whatsoever and the AI will often inadvertently gain a benefit from it by happy accident. Meanwhile, attempts to make the AI try to benefit from the option may well cause it to make what could be strategic errors as well. So is it useless because the AI doesn't really give it any consideration? It's an option that players can probably take more advantage of. And the AI should be taught how to try to use it without hindering itself in the process, which is even difficult for players (though many of us wouldn't see this yet since PVP games are hard and slow to play).

But then again, the player is going to be smarter than the AI after a few games anyhow, options off or no. We could work for decades on advancing the AI performance, probably never reaching a point of absolute perfection. Furthermore, the AI can only be as good as the player programming it and is any player perfect? Doubt it. There's so many 'interesting decisions' that would make such perfection impossible. As stated with S&D, sometimes doing nothing to take advantage of it is the best solution (because to try can thin the stack in a particular plot and leave the thinner stack fractions more vulnerable.)

So again... a very fuzzy gray line there.

Dancing Hoskuld · May 31, 2015

Arakhor said:
Even just renaming and relocating the troublesome ones as Rwn suggests would be useful.

Moving an option in the list will break save games because the save keeps a list of 0 and 1 values as a string and then matches them to the options. So if you swap NO_Revolutions and Mountains then everyone who had Rev on and Mountains off will now have Rev off and Mountains on.

I started a stickied document on all the options.

GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION

Great well thought out and balanced mod. Unfortunately a couple of coding errors in the latest release have caused some problems. I wouldn't play without it. Work to fix those problems has started again.

GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIAN_CIV

Barbarian Civ is one of the few barbarian options that does not completely destroy the AI.

GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS

If this has been changed to include Neanderthals but not include animals I may use it.

GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS

Makes it easier for humans to win

GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI

Originally improved the barbarians but now defeats all AI.

GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION

Breaks the current concept of Religions and their dead end techs in C2C. Will be meaningless if I ever get the evolving religions working.

GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_TRADING
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_BROKERING

These two make for an interesting change.

GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD

Increases the chance the human will win.

GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS

I don't play with this on

GAMEOPTION_NO_INQUISITIONS

I always play with this on

GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS

Ensures human will win.

GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS

Every now and then it makes a nice change to not be able to use mountains. It has been broken now that some barbarian animals can cross mountains. Originally, back in ROM/AND days, the I always played with the use of mountains off. However the use of mountains has matured somewhat and it is not as unbalanced as it once was.

GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI

Unfortunately all the changes introduced in C2C means that this code to makes the game easier for humans and harder for the AI.

GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD

I always play with this on even though it was never meant for pre agricultural time periods and is badly in need of extending in C2C for that reason. If you don't know about the watchtower workaround it is a bad choice.

GAMEOPTION_INFINITE_XP
GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_NATIONAL_UNITS

IMO these two break the game.

Rwn · May 31, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Moving an option in the list will break save games because the save keeps a list of 0 and 1 values as a string and then matches them to the options. So if you swap NO_Revolutions and Mountains then everyone who had Rev on and Mountains off will now have Rev off and Mountains on.

Good point; that's a pity...
Wouldn't there be a way to just display the option in the game menu in a different order?
Otherwise, when a version is going to break saves (will v.36?), it would be a good opportunity to slip this in.

Rwn · May 31, 2015

Trying to summarize things a bit...

I'd really rather perform a full review now than a little at a time otherwise it'll never be finished. If properly organized I'm sure the review will be much more consistent and easy. I'll underline the most controversial issues so those can be discussed (here or in a dedicated thread).

The main categories for currently visible options are:

Stay visible and off for "true" options that can be turned on or off to change the flavor of the game and that modders should consider potentially part of the game when balancing or bugfixing.
Stay visible and off with an "UNSUPPORTED" warning in the option name for those that players may like but that are broken or change the balance the game and that players will select "at their own risk": modders shouldn't feel obligated to fix bugs or imbalances caused by those options (or at least not in priority)
Stay visible and on with an "UNSUPPORTED IF OFF" warning in the option name for options that are broken or change the balance if they are not selected. Unckecking them is like checking an unsupported option in the previous category.
Go invisible and off for really broken or inadapted options that shouldn't be selected.
Go invisible and on for really necessary options that should be selected.

Category I : Visible and off
Let's start with the easiest part: options that were Visible and Off by default and should remain so. They are mostly options that have little or no effect on game balance or that seem popular enough that they are worth the effort to maintain them.

The only place where I remain hesitant is with GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT and GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS. I really think they should be merged into one "Advanced Combat" option (there's already "Advanced Diplomacy" or "Advanced Espionage"), first because it seems that those who don't like one also don't like the other, and because managing the state of each leads to additional management (hence the "Size Matters Uncut" problem which looks precisely like the kind of needless work caused by too many options available).
I'd even put it on by default - the only issue there is whether it causes a signifiant AI problem. In my experience the AI isn't too good with it, but I'm not sure AI is really better without it (sharing your experience if you've done both is welcome). I'd even go as far as putting a "UNSUPPORTED IF OFF" prefix to it to encourage player using it - I mostly agree with the discussion in the "unit healing" thread in the modmod section, advanced combat should be considered a true part of the game and further combat balance assume that it's on, not the other way around, although there's always the possibility to turn it off for those that aren't interested in combat.

Now options (well, really a single option) that were Visible and On by default and will become Visible and Off:

Given the above feedback, this module should be working fine so no need to deactivate it by default. It's also easier to understand if "true options" are all initially unchecked.

Category II : Visible, off and UNSUPPORTED

As "unsupported" options would now be easy to spot and to toggle, I'd take this opportunity to put more options here to better the "base C2C", the one that is balanced to work properly on which options will be allowed only if they actually work as intended - in other words, players are free to select any option here, but shouldn't expect it to be maintained, to always work as expected.

Those that don't seem too controversial to me:

As fun as GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD, GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS, GAMEOPTION_SAD, GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS and GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS might be, they notably increase the performance gap between player and AI, so they are set to unsupported until that's no longer the case.
All options between GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_DIFFUSION up to GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_WONDERS on the table above aren't necessarily bad, but are put there to have a more uniform "base C2C" experience. Fine if a player wants to switch one, but it might make the game unbalanced (perhaps in an unexpected way) so until this "base C2C" is balanced those options shouldn't add further confusion to the unaware player. Maybe they can become "normal" options again afterwards.
I've understood that GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE did not fully work as intended yet, so at least currently it shouldn't let people believe it's the case. I'm not sure it should afterwards (should espionage be considered a core part of C2C? Would someone want to play C2C without espionage?), but that's a discussion for later anyway.
GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS and GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION aren't really fit for C2C, but if anyone wants to have fun with it, let's keep them visible (but unsupported)...
GAMEOPTION_PERSONALIZED_MAP is slightly buggy but if it's mainly a matter of it being "not good enough", well, it could remain visible.
GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER was previously on by default; I guess it could be off by default...

Controversial ones:

GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES could be either UNSUPPORTED or UNSUPPORTED IF OFF, both approach seem valid, but I'd really have one or the other (rather than it being a "real option") as it changes the game balance.
I don't really know what to do with GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE. Having a difficulty option in addition to the difficulty setting is rather confusing; intuitively I thought that it scaled the whole tree (so that Nightmare/Settler was harder than Base/Deity), but I learn here that its main effect is adding two to the difficulty level. Wouldn't it be simpler to just add two difficulty levels after Deity and let the player choose only a difficulty setting? If it also changes other things (such as lowering gold income), then Nightmare mode should be more explicit and do just that...

Category III : Visible, on and UNSUPPORTED IF OFF

Works the same as category II, except that those option are checked by default and the warning is if the player unchecks it.

Those that don't seem too controversial to me:

GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES significantly change the game balance, so support should be either for on or off. I'd go for on since it's currently on by default so I assume most people plays with it except those who want a challenge. I'm wondering if it'd be clearer to actually have options that do the opposite, i.e. have both GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES activated and invisible and make a GAMEOPTION_LESS_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_LESS_RESOURCES deactivated and visible whose sole effect when switched would be to enforce GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES off. Thus the current setup (with more rivers and resources) would actually show like the standard.
GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS, GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD and GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING are changing the game balance, so they should be either UNSUPPORTED or UNSUPPORTED IF OFF. I feel those should be on by default, so UNSUPPORTED IF OFF.

Regarding GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION, I'm not completely sure I understood what people said here: it worked but recent changes have introduced bugs that are currently fixed, is that right? In this case it seems necessary to point out that the Revolution mod is currently unsupported, i.e. have GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION with a UNSUPPORTED IF OFF warning, until it's fixed.
I also find it very confusing that the option's effect is to disable the component (as it was illustrated in this very thread), so I suggest having a "Include Revolution Component" option that does just the opposite of GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION - the first would be off and visible by default and the second on and invisible by default and enforced to off if "Include Revolution Component" is on.

Category IV : Invisible and off

Those don't work or are unnecessary so they shouldn't even need an UNSUPPORTED tag, they should just go invisible and off:

None here seems too controversial to me:

GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START, GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI, GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI and GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE don't work properly or at all with C2C.
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS, GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW and GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY are a bit redundant with difficulty settings but more importantly can be achieved (with even more customization) through BUG options.
If I understood correctly its philosophy, GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS_UNCUT is irrelevant if GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT and GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS are merged, otherwise it should be enforced if both GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS is on and GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT is off.

Category V : Invisible and on

Those are options that shouldn't really be turned off:

None here seems too controversial to me:

GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS is required to get Great Hunters, a core part of the early game
GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST don't really enforce anything on the player, there's a popup allowing the player to decline, so there shouldn't be problems to keep it always on. I guess it prevents the interface annoyance for something you most of the time don't want, but it's not like it happens very often...
GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS can be considered part of the core game
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes the happiness penalty due to number of cities. Not sure where this penalty comes from or whether it's still enforced, but now the number of cities should be primarly limited by maintenance cost (or at least aims to be balanced that way), so this is a bit redundant.
ZOC are bugged even according to the description of GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC, so until it's fixed it should remain there.

To give an idea, with the changes above, there would be 57 visible options, including 19 "true" options (excluding the unsupported and unsupported if off options).

Arakhor · May 31, 2015

Those seem fairly reasonable to me.

Dancing Hoskuld · May 31, 2015

The only time I have played with Religious Disabling on it kept removing the religion I wanted to convert to. Very irritating.

I don't think you can turn off Advance Start since it is a different structure to the other options.

Rwn · May 31, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
The only time I have played with Religious Disabling on it kept removing the religion I wanted to convert to. Very irritating.

(I assume you mean Religion Decay, not Religious Disabling?)
Using inquisitors to purge the religions you don't want would probably have helped

Seems a good example of how having so many option combinations available can be problematic...

(what's the issue with No Inquition btw? You'd rather have the AI not be able to remove religions?)

JosEPh_II · May 31, 2015

After awhile I find this rather confusing.

Something a bit more simple to me would go like this; I'll Use No_Revolutions. (A visual aid is sometimes needed to cut thru to comprehension)
Currently NO-Revolution: IF the box is Unchecked, then REV is turned ON in the Mod.
If you Check the Box, then Rev is Off and Not part of the Mod.

So when you say ON do you mean the box is checked? Or is it the other way, the box is Unchecked? This is the root of Much confusion over Options.

I agree that long ago when this option was made, if you wanted to use Rev in your game that the Option should have read: Revolution Mod, with out the No in front. Then if you wanted to use Rev you check the box. Leaving the box unchecked meant that you did Not want Rev in your game. To me that would have been less confusion. So if the box for any Option is Checked that Option is ON, Unchecked it is Off. Would that seem less confusing to all? Or is it just me?

JosEPh

JosEPh

JosEPh_II · May 31, 2015

Rwn said:
(I assume you mean Religion Decay, not Religious Disabling?)
Using inquisitors to purge the religions you don't want would probably have helped Seems a good example of how having so many option combinations available can be problematic...

(what's the issue with No Inquition btw? You'd rather have the AI not be able to remove religions?)

Where did you get this inference from DH about No Inquisition? It's statements like this that make this process even harder to understand.

As for the AI removing religions, it only hurts the AI. The more religions they can gather the stronger an opponent they are. Inquisitions was made for the player, especially those that did not like religions in the game at all. And there are many out there that have that mindset. I'm of the opposite mindset. And always check the box for NO Inquisitions.

JosEPh

Rwn · May 31, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
After awhile I find this rather confusing.

Something a bit more simple to me would go like this; I'll Use No_Revolutions. (A visual aid is sometimes needed to cut thru to comprehension)
Currently NO-Revolution: IF the box is Unchecked, then REV is turned ON in the Mod.
If you Check the Box, then Rev is Off and Not part of the Mod.

So when you say ON do you mean the box is checked? Or is it the other way, the box is Unchecked? This is the root of Much confusion over Options.

I agree that long ago when this option was made, if you wanted to use Rev in your game that the Option should have read: Revolution Mod, with out the No in front. Then if you wanted to use Rev you check the box. Leaving the box unchecked meant that you did Not want Rev in your game. To me that would have been less confusion. So if the box for any Option is Checked that Option is ON, Unchecked it is Off. Would that seem less confusing to all? Or is it just me?

When I wrote "on" above, it always meant "option is checked" (and "off" = "option is unchecked"), whatever the checked option does (even disabling something).

If I understand correctly what you're suggesting in your last sentence, we're on the same line here:

Rwn said:
I also find it very confusing that the option's effect is to disable the component (as it was illustrated in this very thread), so I suggest having a "Include Revolution Component" option that does just the opposite of GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION - the first would be off and visible by default and the second on and invisible by default and enforced to off if "Include Revolution Component" is on.

Yudishtira · Jun 1, 2015

Rwn said:
Trying to summarize things a bit...

Go invisible and off for really broken or inadapted options that shouldn't be selected.
Go invisible and on for really necessary options that should be selected.

The only place where I remain hesitant is with GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT and GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS. I really think they should be merged into one "Advanced Combat" option (there's already "Advanced Diplomacy" or "Advanced Espionage"), first because it seems that those who don't like one also don't like the other, and because managing the state of each leads to additional management (hence the "Size Matters Uncut" problem which looks precisely like the kind of needless work caused by too many options available).

Category IV : Invisible and off

Those don't work or are unnecessary so they shouldn't even need an UNSUPPORTED tag, they should just go invisible and off:

Option|Was|Becomes|Comment
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ECONOMY| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Buggy
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Can be achieved with BUG options
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Can be achieved with BUG options
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Can be achieved with BUG options
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Does not work
GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Does not work properly in C2C
GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Does not work properly in C2C
GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS_UNCUT| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |No point if FoF and SM are merged
GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE| Visible & Off | Invisible & Off |Not adapted to C2C

Category V : Invisible and on

Those are options that shouldn't really be turned off:

Option|Was|Becomes|Comment
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS| Visible & Off | Invisible & On |Necessary for Great Hunters
GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST| Visible & Off | Invisible & On |No real reason to turn off
GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS| Visible & Off | Invisible & On |No real reason to turn off
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS| Visible & Off | Invisible & On |There's already maintenance cost to balance # of cities
GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC| Visible & Off | Invisible & On |ZOC is buggy according to description

None here seems too controversial to me:

GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes the happiness penalty due to number of cities. Not sure where this penalty comes from or whether it's still enforced, but now the number of cities should be primarly limited by maintenance cost (or at least aims to be balanced that way), so this is a bit redundant.

In principle I assert no additional options should be made invisible. However there are only a few of those I personally would miss.

Advanced Economy, Aggressive AI and Ruthless AI should be visible. I have heard nothing concrete as to what's not working about them.

City Limits from civics should be visible or on. Your comments are completely wrong. Some of the limits are wrong, but that's a whole nother issue.

ZOCs should be visible or on. I might consider an experiment with this off, if I had a test game currently at the right era for the evaluation. In my experience ZOCs are far more of an exasperation for the player than the AI. They work the way they work, and that's what I play with.

At present I play with Fight or Flight and without Size Matters. They should not be merged - that's ridiculous.

Earlier it was mooted that some currently invisible options should maybe be visible - I notice that area was 'beyond the scope' of this review (presumably because less transparency is always better :mischief:

).

As for options marked unsupported, I hope they will at least also be listed in the FAQ, as they are far more easily accessible there. And I trust the people who actually fix bugs will disregard this arbitrary distinction when possible.

Arakhor · Jun 1, 2015

If absolutely nothing else, the Advanced Economy option contributes to long load-times and isn't worth the time, especially considering C2C's general financial abundance. There's a very good reason that inflation and trade routes were stripped out of AND2.

Rwn · Jun 1, 2015

Yudishtira said:
Advanced Economy, Aggressive AI and Ruthless AI should be visible. I have heard nothing concrete as to what's not working about them.

See alberts2 and Dancing Hosklud's comments; I believe their experience with the mod is good enough that if they say it's not working well or causing issues, it's most likely true...

Yudishtira said:
City Limits from civics should be visible or on. Your comments are completely wrong. Some of the limits are wrong, but that's a whole nother issue.

Could you elaborate? This should be either on or off by default depending on how the civics are done, but not open to tweaking - should we expect an option that activates or not a :gold:

penalty for welfare civics? one that activates or not :yuck:

from garbage? etc.

Yudishtira said:
ZOCs should be visible or on. I might consider an experiment with this off, if I had a test game currently at the right era for the evaluation. In my experience ZOCs are far more of an exasperation for the player than the AI. They work the way they work, and that's what I play with.

The very description of this option advises to deactivate it! If it's not too buggy to be usable I guess it could go to visible/unsupported then.

Yudishtira said:
At present I play with Fight or Flight and without Size Matters. They should not be merged - that's ridiculous.

According to the maker of those they are balanced to work together though.

Yudishtira said:
Earlier it was mooted that some currently invisible options should maybe be visible - I notice that area was 'beyond the scope' of this review (presumably because less transparency is always better).

Which invisible options are you thinking of? In my opinion No Goody huts could be made visible, but I can't really see any other.

Actually, whatever the changes are here, I'll post a modmod making every option visible so that those that like having a galore of options at start (even if they do not work properly) can have them visible.

Toffer90 · Jun 1, 2015

GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY

Do not make this option invisible before it becomes an option in BUG menu.
Right now, its effect, cannot be achieved in any BUG options.

GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC - ZOC is buggy according to description…

Its bugs are not game breaking, only minor annoyances, I never play with it (have tested it for many hours) but I can imagine some think it's effect justifies the annoyances.

Rwn · Jun 1, 2015

Toffer90 said:
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY

Do not make this option invisible before it becomes an option in BUG menu.
Right now, its effect, cannot be achieved in any BUG options.

Err, increasing the game difficulty in the BUG menu whenever you want can do that (with even more customization possibilities), doesn't it?

Toffer90 · Jun 1, 2015

Rwn said:
Err, increasing the game difficulty in the BUG menu whenever you want can do that (with even more customization possibilities), doesn't it?

I don't want to control it, I want it to be automatic. Opening the bug menu every 50-100 turns or so to increase the difficulty by 1 until deity is reached would be a hassle and immersion-breaker.

Additionally I play with flexible difficult for the AI, but it is then enforced on me too, that makes it impossible for me to keep it at deity difficulty for myself. I would have to keep a close watch at when the difficulty is decreased for me so I can increase it again immediately throughout the entire game.

Arakhor · Jun 1, 2015

You don't need to do that. BUG can do it automatically for you or you can adjust it manually via the menu. You can also set minimum and maximum difficulty for yourself.

Toffer90 · Jun 1, 2015

Arakhor said:
You don't need to do that. BUG can do it automatically for you or you can adjust it manually via the menu. You can also set minimum and maximum difficulty for yourself.

Okay... so I set it to Minimum: "Deity" Maximum: "Deity" in bug and start a new game on warlord.
Will this still allow AI to reach settler difficulty when their score is low?

I could live with this then, only the sudden transition from warlord to deity would probably be demanding.

Toffer90 · Jun 1, 2015

@Rwn & Arakhor: I'm also in this discussion, asuming you have already read my previous post on the subject

Link to post 7

Game options review

C2C War Dog

C2C War Dog

Deity

King

King

Dremora Courtier

Deity

King

TBS WarLord

TBS WarLord

King

Spiritual/Creative

Dremora Courtier

King

C2C Modder

King

C2C Modder

Dremora Courtier

C2C Modder

C2C Modder

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