Game options review

[Arakhor]

I hardly ever use Revolutions but I do use Inquisitions a lot. I don't want to see them made into exclusively symbiotic options.

 

[MacCoise]

I presume "invisible" means still available in World Builder?

 

[Thunderbrd]

@T-brd,
Well if Inquisition is tied so heavily into REV (and I knew it was from the REV team) then why not just add it ti the REV Option. If you Turn On REV you also Turn ON Inquisitions. Then players such as myself who use Neither only have to check or uncheck 1 box. Makes it simpler in my book.

JosEPh

Well... then there's players like me who play with Inquisitions on to enable the Religious victory option and inquisitors themselves (which you can use against enemy cities) while not playing with Rev.

 

[Arakhor]

Likewise. The Religious victory is one of the more interesting ones.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Oh well, meh... one more box to check.

JosEPh

 

[Toffer90]

I've changed my mind about increasing difficulty, it can go.

 

[Rwn]

(Nightmare mode)

It's not JUST 2 levels harder - that's just the baseline. It was setup that way but has been evolving to some significant differences, like with Education, which balances to the normal game up to Noble then starts gaining pop penalties as the difficulty increases, at a faster rate than the normal game difficulty chart.

Admittedly, the alternative of adding two levels beyond deity and removing the option would be suitable I'm sure. This option has been a game testing zone more than anything. It's MUCH easier to select an option than it is to try to integrate a modmod fileset so if you REALLY want something to get tested, set it up as an option.

Yeah, I saw that when making the table in the modmod thread. I guess for now the option should remain visible then.

GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS should be off and invisible until someone re-evaluates and re-balances it so that it achieves its intention. At the moment it can actually change things to be the opposite of what it advertises.

I compared the eternity speed with and without it, it looks like the base settings were indeed tweaked without changing the other - this option also changes growth, construction speed changes depending on whether it's a buildind or a wonder, research speed is faster with upscaled costs...

I'd keep this option visible and unsupported for those that are used to play with it, but it should definitely be reviewed at some point.

No espionage is a base BtS option isn't it? I believe it works just fine and was fully integrated (it's pretty simple). I just don't use it so I don't know.

Dancing Hoskuld mentioned somewhere that it did not fully work (some espionage things slipped away). I don't really understand how one would want to play C2C without espionage, but it could still remain unsupported for now.

Limited and Pick religions are adapted to C2C but there's those who don't like one or the other or both passionately. I agree visible and off but I don't think an 'unsupported' note is necessary. Perhaps an unadvised for new players note.

Unsupported is also intended as a warning that it might unbalance the game - it's clearly the case for pick religion. For limited religion, well, it's likely to make the AI (and the unaware player) stay stuck with an early religion - that's not really how C2C is intended to work, unlike the vanilla game.

I don't see a reason for Personalized Map to be even visible. From what I understand, the main point of it is bugged out bad enough to basically lose the option entirely after you save and restart. If the goal here is to eliminate options, I don't think anyone will whine over this one being removed until it can be completely repaired, which the best minds have tried to do and have not yet been able to. I think. If they did, then you've got the right setting.

Ah, if it's as bad then yeah, it's worth putting it invisible...

To add the option 'Revolutions' you could simply add a new Revolutions option and make it have a prerequisite of No Revolutions being OFF. Then set No Revolutions ON and INVISIBLE so that by selecting the option 'Revolutions', which can be seen as a player, it swaps the assumption established by the hidden No Revolutions option. Would only end up confusing future modders and those trying to change options in mid play with the worldbuilder. But the rest of us would understand why it was done this way (to do otherwise would require significant C++ coding effort.)

That's precisely what I had in mind

There is a flaw in the tag programming for local rev index adjustments so that the local tag is still a national tag. Additionally, there are highly suspected crashpoints and OOS errors located within its coding. It's a very difficult mod for a python or c++ programmer to work on unless they have a mastery of both because it's playing out heavily on both ends. Our ability to fix some issues there has been limited and apparently the team that created it has done massive improvements but it would be tough to simply port them in and one of them hates that we include even an old version of rev so we're not getting any help from them. Thankfully, it wasn't all that broken to start with. But the tag issue... I'd fix it but I wouldn't know how to fix it on the python side.

That would be a case to make it unsupported...

I've been thinking long and hard about the merging the combat mods suggestion. The intention was always to eventually find a way to restructure the option selection chart itself somewhat but for NOW it makes sense to merge them into an Advanced Combat Mod option and turn SM Uncut off and invisible in the process (though some may complain, I think those that would COULD be guided to the xml as it's a modder level disagreement I don't think players would tend to care as much about and if the rare one mentioned something they could be told how to get the effect they're looking for.) One reason NOT to merge them, however, would be to allow a player to adapt to one level of complexity in a game before selecting the next and adapting to that one. It's intended to help them ramp in rather than be slammed with all of it at once. There's, as you see, a lot more combat mods planned. It also helped me to define parameters of a given option for development progress. And to help keep conversations on those mods focused.

But if we go that way I won't complain. The way to do it would be to set both of them to OFF and INVISIBLE. Then make a third option that is visible. That option would have a prereq of both fight or flight and size matters, making the game automatically turn those two options both on if Advanced Combat is selected.

Sounds good.

Inquisitions benefit the AI greatly if Rev and Religious Disabling is on, all the more if Limited Religions is on. Having more than one religion in a city is harmful to the rev index (though hardly noticeable unless its a holy city with multiple religions founded there - one reason Rev can make Divine Prophets a little more interesting). And with Religious Disabling, there is no benefit to a civ with multiple religions in its cities. They can only benefit from one at a time. Not like Limited Religions where you can benefit from more but can only ever found a religion if you don't own a city that already is a Holy City.

Additionally, a Religious Victory, if I recall correctly, is achieved when Inquisitors have eradicated all religious in all cities except your state religion. With No Inquisitions ON you end up being unable to work with a Religious Victory. I could be wrong... this is going off of the source of the Religious Victory concept being the Gods of Old mod that shipped with the original BtS Vanilla.

No inquisition seems fine as a "true" option - with a proper description to warn about religious victory.

I presume "invisible" means still available in World Builder?

Yes, or in editing the GameOption file. Or using a modmod that makes every option visible (I'll see if that's doable).

 

[Rwn]

Here's the updated version of the table. Compared to the previous proposal:

• "UNSUPPORTED" prefix are now replaced by "NOT BALANCED" and "BETA" prefixes.
  The first means that the feature works as intended, but may imbalance the game too much or in an unexpected way compared to the (hopefully balanced) core C2C. Not recommended if you'd like to play a balanced game.
  The second means that the feature may have issues or unbalance the game in an unexpected way. Not recommended unless you know what you're doing.
  A bit of text will be added in the description of each relevant option to explain the meaning.
• FoF and SM are now invisible, while a new single option (GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_COMBAT) is visible and toggles both. It's possible to only activate either through the GameOption file or the worldbuilder. After a lot of thoughts, I think it'd be best to put that merged option visible with a BETA warning, but activated by default.
• No Revolution becomes invisible and another visible option (GAMEOPTION_INCLUDE_REVOLUTION) turns it off when it is on for better clarity.
• NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS and START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS are now checked by default so that traits are effectively deactivated.
• ZOC becomes visible, UNITED_NATIONS becomes invisible, NO_CITY_LIMITS becomes activated by default, PERSONALIZED_MAP invisible and off
• I hope I didn't forget anything...

Option||Was|Was||Becomes|Becomes|New prefix
GAMEOPTION_DIVINE_PROPHETS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_RAZING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_LEAD_ANY_CIV|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_RANDOM_PERSONALITIES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_TRADING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_BROKERING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_COMPLETE_KILLS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_EVENTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_INQUISITIONS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CULTURALLY_LINKED_STARTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_RELIGION_DECAY|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIANS_ALWAYS_RAZE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ESPIONAGE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIAN_CIV|| Visible | On || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_SAD|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_DIFFUSION|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_NUKES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_INFINITE_XP|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_NATIONAL_UNITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_PURE_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_LEADERHEAD_LEVELUPS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_NO_NUKES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_XP_FROM_ASSIGNED_SPECIALISTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_MORE_XP_TO_LEVEL|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_WONDERS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER|| Visible | On || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_NO_FIXED_BORDERS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_PERMANENT_ALLIANCES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |NOT BALANCED
GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS|| Visible | On || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES|| Visible | On || Visible | On |NOT BALANCED IF OFF
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_COMBAT||||| Visible | On |BETA
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CORPORATIONS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_FLIPPING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_INCLUDE_REVOLUTION||||| Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_PERSONALIZED_MAP|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ECONOMY|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS_UNCUT|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION|| Visible | On || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_UNITED_NATIONS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |

 

[Toffer90]

My only comment would be that I think all visible should be off by default.

The hover over should explain the option well enough for a new player to make an independent and informed choice.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So I would now "have to" play with Modern Corporations????

And I don't get where having Religious Disabling as Unbalanced when turned Off. If anything impo it's the exact opposite.

Both More Rivers and More Resources Does Not balance the Mod, they Just Give More, Period. They make the Mods play easier not balanced nor more challenging. Iirc TB made them to help newer players and those that didn't want to have to strategize about getting that X or Y resource.

Nor does Realistic Culture Spread balance the mod. It's just an alternative way for Culture to spread. The Realistic part of the Name is only in the eye of the beholder (or rather the Mod's author). It presents more obstacles for culture spread and allows original culture to stay too long if original source has been removed from the area.

JosEPh

 

[Yudishtira]

Personalized Map has been changed from visible - unsupported to invisible with zero discussion. What the hell is your problem with it? "Slightly buggy"?

All the people making thoughtful changes are in the modmod section, but this clueless tinkering-for-its-own-sake isn't. If this vandalism is to be done for real, it has got to be a modmod.

 

[Toffer90]

And I don't get where having Religious Disabling as Unbalanced when turned Off. If anything impo it's the exact opposite.

Both More Rivers and More Resources Does Not balance the Mod, they Just Give More, Period. They make the Mods play easier not balanced nor more challenging. Iirc TB made them to help newer players and those that didn't want to have to strategize about getting that X or Y resource.

Nor does Realistic Culture Spread balance the mod. It's just an alternative way for Culture to spread. The Realistic part of the Name is only in the eye of the beholder (or rather the Mod's author). It presents more obstacles for culture spread and allows original culture to stay too long if original source has been removed from the area.

JosEPh

I agree with Jo here.

Realistic culture spread actually unbalances the game if on; due to its unfair nature; it's not all that predictable. (Always use the option myself though)

 

[Rwn]

So I would now "have to" play with Modern Corporations????

Are you sure you're not confusing with Realistic Corporations? AFAIK Modern corporations are just new corporations, not really different than any newly added building or unit.

And I don't get where having Religious Disabling as Unbalanced when turned Off. If anything impo it's the exact opposite.

Well, without Religious Disabling, a city can accumulate bonuses from all religions - with a +10% per monastery and +25% (or was it +50%?) per cathedral, it can go a bit too far.

Both More Rivers and More Resources Does Not balance the Mod, they Just Give More, Period. They make the Mods play easier not balanced nor more challenging. Iirc TB made them to help newer players and those that didn't want to have to strategize about getting that X or Y resource.

I don't really care if that's on or off by default, it should just be what we expect the base game to have. Both are currently on by default so I kept what was there. It'd sure be more understandable to have them both off, though I don't know how balanced that is?
Still, that's a very good example of an option that can widely change one's perception of the difficulty of the game for a given difficulty setting.

Nor does Realistic Culture Spread balance the mod. It's just an alternative way for Culture to spread. The Realistic part of the Name is only in the eye of the beholder (or rather the Mod's author). It presents more obstacles for culture spread and allows original culture to stay too long if original source has been removed from the area.

Sounds reasonable.

Personalized Map has been changed from visible - unsupported to invisible with zero discussion. What the hell is your problem with it? "Slightly buggy"?

Check the messages above.
I forgot to report it on the main message though, sorry about that.

All the people making thoughtful changes are in the modmod section, but this clueless tinkering-for-its-own-sake isn't. If this vandalism is to be done for real, it has got to be a modmod.

Making it a modmod makes no sense, it's intended to make the "default C2C experience" more obvious and be a step in the direction of a less complex to maintain C2C. I have no personal interest in this other than helping to find a solution to a problem that was voiced by several people, including C2C modders. Check the very beginning of this thread, it's not a "tinkering-for-its-own-sake", and making this thread here to discuss it is precisely intended to avoid it from being "clueless".

You've made it abundantly clear that you don't agree with the whole idea, but when you have some people who do and others who don't, you're bound to make some dissatisfied, and there's no reason why the best option is necessarily "keeping things as they were" (aka ignoring the problem until it can no longer be). Discussing it with constructive criticism allows to identify issues and find compromises (such as using the prefix instead of making options invisible) so that the result can be as acceptable as possible for everyone.

Again, it'd be very easy to have a modmod making every option visible if you want that (I can even do the modmod); would that be acceptable for you, and if not, why?

 

[Toffer90]

About the More rivers and more resources options:

I believe these were added because someone (SO?) was too lazy to always have to change the mapscript option for rivers and resources to plenty. As these particular options are not remembered from one game to another.
I think these options only work when the mapscript equivalent options are set to default.
The default experience of C2C is not the the unbalanced plenty resources option.

Either we remove the more rivers and resources or we add two more options called less rivers and less resources as well.

My two cents on the matter.

 

[Rwn]

About the More rivers and more resources options:

I believe these were added because someone (SO?) was too lazy to always have to change the mapscript option for rivers and resources to plenty. As these particular options are not remembered from one game to another.
I think these options only work when the mapscript equivalent options are set to default.
The default experience of C2C is not the the unbalanced plenty resources option.

Either we remove the more rivers and resources or we add two more options called less rivers and less resources as well.

My two cents on the matter.

I'm not sure I understand you here... Why would there be a need for two "less X" options (in addition or in place of the "more X"?) if the "default" should be with the two "more X" unchecked?

Also I forgot to answer you post above: while I agree it'd be more understandable to have all options off by default, a few options should really be on by default IMHO, such as passable mountains and religious disabling. Unless a "reverse option" is used to replace them, but I'm afraid that using that trick too often would make things very confusing later on...

 

[jshetley]

You can always go into the XML and make the changes to these options so what is being done here should not be causing this much argument. The story would be much different if these changes were forced on you like not being able to trade techs until both Civs have writing. I understand why it was changed, but I do wish i could change it back for my games.

 

[Toffer90]

I'm not sure I understand you here... Why would there be a need for two "less X" options (in addition or in place of the "more X"?) if the "default" should be with the two "more X" unchecked?

You misread, either we remove the two that we have, or, we add two more options that does the opposite.

With unnecessary options like these we either cater to all, or cater to none.


Edit: Regarding passable mountains and religious disabling I play with none. I don't want units to be able to pass mountains without the mountaineering promotion as the whole point of mountains are to be natural barriers for units (I think/hope this is what that option does, as I'm capable of building improvements on mountains without the option). Religious disabling is a very crude module, and a poor attempt at balancing religions.

Just saying that opinions on this differ a lot, so it should really be up to SO, our fearless leader, (or DH, his second in command) to decide if any options should be on by default.

 

[Harrier]

You can always go into the XML and make the changes to these options so what is being done here should not be causing this much argument.

A lot of players do not know how to/or want to change XML files.

Nor should they be forced to.

 

[Toffer90]

You can always go into the XML and make the changes to these options so what is being done here should not be causing this much argument. The story would be much different if these changes were forced on you like not being able to trade techs until both Civs have writing. I understand why it was changed, but I do wish i could change it back for my games.

I don't see anything wrong about a debate it only strengthens the outcome.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Personalized Map has been changed from visible - unsupported to invisible with zero discussion. What the hell is your problem with it? "Slightly buggy"?

All the people making thoughtful changes are in the modmod section, but this clueless tinkering-for-its-own-sake isn't. If this vandalism is to be done for real, it has got to be a modmod.

Have you been playing it and found the labels are sticking around after you save and reload a game? If so, then it should stay as an option. I wasn't sure that had been resolved.

About the More rivers and more resources options:

I believe these were added because someone (SO?) was too lazy to always have to change the mapscript option for rivers and resources to plenty. As these particular options are not remembered from one game to another.
I think these options only work when the mapscript equivalent options are set to default.
The default experience of C2C is not the the unbalanced plenty resources option.

Either we remove the more rivers and resources or we add two more options called less rivers and less resources as well.

My two cents on the matter.

They do only work if the mapscript equiv option is set to default. It wasn't a matter of laziness but a matter of being told it couldn't be done in the mapscripting python for all maps. I wasn't getting much instruction there so perhaps there was a better way. Was just really frustrating that some maps were otherwise an improvement but you couldn't do anything with the resources and rivers.