Game options review

[olduser]

If you don't fix newly-introduced bugs, you can't fix anything.



The fallacy here is the implication that you can't have both. There was no need for graphical paging to break personalized maps.

I wasn't around at the time graphical paging was added but that issue should have been reported right after it was added. But it might be possible that it is not even possible to fix those signs because of the way graphical paging works. If that is the case what is more important?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I wasn't around at the time graphical paging was added but that issue should have been reported right after it was added. But it might be possible that it is not even possible to fix those signs because of the way graphical paging works. If that is the case what is more important?

Raises hand! Oh! Oh! Teacher! I can answer that one!

JosEPh

Edit: This is the Post in the SVN thread were Koshling Introduces Graphic Paging. You can use this as a reference for when and how the inclusion and bug fixing went for this game saving coding that koshling gave us.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12750866&postcount=6747

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes. Koshling cause the problem when he made things work faster and better. His comment was something like "he tried to make all the notices on the map work the same way but in doing so broke personalised maps, the event signs and maybe the reminder signs you used to be able to put there". Since he changed that area of code then perhaps God Emperor's code does not have anywhere to be placed any more.

Part of the problem is that signs may be placed by the dll or python but need to be "remembered and saved" by the dll.

 

[Arakhor]

Personalised signs haven't worked properly since at least Sept 2012, because Shenryrr mentions it in his C2C Deity Cherokee LP.

 

[Rwn]

(Religious Disabling)

NO NO NO!
DH has worked and worked and worked on Religions just Please Stop screwing with the part of the Game that WORKS!!! Yes I'm being Demonstrative to drive home a point. Religions is one of The Better Balanced and Fun portions of this Mod. And if you start whacking at it's culture you are just crippling Culture all over again. It's Science %s have been adjusted time and again. It plays well and does Not need adjustments.

Religious Disabling doesn't change the balance between religions or make any religion better or worse! It just prevents one from cumulating the bonuses from different religions - which is quite unbalanced IMHO thus making the option needed (or alternatively a change in the religious buildings to have most of their effect apply only if they are state religion).

For personalized maps, the length of this discussion is proof enough that's not just a question of a simple quick fix and that simply having this option around makes people spend time discussing the issue far beyond the option's impact on the game...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Religious Disabling doesn't change the balance between religions or make any religion better or worse! It just prevents one from cumulating the bonuses from different religions - which is quite unbalanced IMHO thus making the option needed (or alternatively a change in the religious buildings to have most of their effect apply only if they are state religion).

For personalized maps, the length of this discussion is proof enough that's not just a question of a simple quick fix and that simply having this option around makes people spend time discussing the issue far beyond the option's impact on the game...

Religious Disabling can stay as is. But If you start changing the rest which would affect Multiple religion Spread, Then I have to Totally Disagree with your assessment and your opinion on unbalanced.

accumulating the bonuses from different religions - which is quite unbalanced IMHO

And your suggested

(or alternatively a change in the religious buildings to have most of their effect apply only if they are state religion)

which would remove another game play style and choice.

JosEPh

 

[Rwn]

Religious Disabling can stay as is. But If you start changing the rest which would affect Multiple religion Spread, Then I have to Totally Disagree with your assessment and your opinion on unbalanced. And your suggested which would remove another game play style and choice.

I don't understand your point. You can always spread multiple religions in your empire, which has the main purpose of allowing you to choose between different state religion, but you shouldn't be able to get, say, +100% research from building 10 missionary temples because you have 10 religions in a city! That's completely broken! (and moreso as the AI will never actively do something like that) Well, it could be possible to keep it as an unbalanced option, but this shouldn't be possible by default.

 

[Rwn]

OK, time to update the table - we should be nearing a final version by now...

Changes since last one (trying not to forget something):

• "UNBALANCED" is now called "BALANCE WARNING" that more accurately describes the category: it's not necessarily "unbalanced" per se, but change the game balance enough that a player should be aware that it might make the game too easy or too hard.
• Tried to keep options off by default: switched off NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS, START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS (so basic traits are now on by default), GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD, GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS, GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES.
• I'm still finding it difficult to turn off GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS (it's not like mountains are easily crossable for a long time anyway), GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING and GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_COMBAT. Only way I see would be to have opposite properties for those instead (though that makes 2 more options to add while the original goes invisible)

Option||Was|Was||Becomes|Becomes|New prefix
GAMEOPTION_DIVINE_PROPHETS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_RAZING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_LEAD_ANY_CIV|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_RANDOM_PERSONALITIES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_TRADING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_BROKERING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_COMPLETE_KILLS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_EVENTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_INQUISITIONS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CULTURALLY_LINKED_STARTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_RELIGION_DECAY|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIANS_ALWAYS_RAZE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ESPIONAGE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIAN_CIV|| Visible | On || Visible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_SAD|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_DIFFUSION|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_NUKES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_INFINITE_XP|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_NATIONAL_UNITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_PURE_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_LEADERHEAD_LEVELUPS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_NO_NUKES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_XP_FROM_ASSIGNED_SPECIALISTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_MORE_XP_TO_LEVEL|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_WONDERS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER|| Visible | On || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_NO_FIXED_BORDERS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_PERMANENT_ALLIANCES|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS|| Visible | On || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES|| Visible | On || Visible | Off |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING|| Visible | Off || Visible | On |BALANCE WARNING
GAMEOPTION_NO_ADVANCED_COMBAT||||| Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CORPORATIONS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_FLIPPING|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC|| Visible | Off || Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_INCLUDE_REVOLUTION||||| Visible | Off |BETA
GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_PERSONALIZED_MAP|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ECONOMY|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS_UNCUT|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | Off |
GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION|| Visible | On || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_UNITED_NATIONS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |
GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS|| Visible | Off || Invisible | On |

 

[Taxman66]

If possible, I suggest changing the text color of the options that are balance warnings and in beta to yellow... or perhaps to soft yellow and bright yellow respectively.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't understand your point. You can always spread multiple religions in your empire, which has the main purpose of allowing you to choose between different state religion, but you shouldn't be able to get, say, +100% research from building 10 missionary temples because you have 10 religions in a city! That's completely broken! (and moreso as the AI will never actively do something like that) Well, it could be possible to keep it as an unbalanced option, but this shouldn't be possible by default.

You are So wrong here, so very wrong, it is Not Broken at all. The AI Does do it! If Allowed to do it by the options allowed or disallowed and becomes very competent and powerful opponents because of it. Stop with these assumptions please. Just because you say it doesn't happen doesn't make it so in actual game play. You seem to do this a lot. And your view is Myopic.

JosEPh

 

[Rwn]

You are So wrong here, so very wrong, it is Not Broken at all. The AI Does do it! If Allowed to do it by the options allowed or disallowed and becomes very competent and powerful opponents because of it. Stop with these assumptions please. Just because you say it doesn't happen doesn't make it so in actual game play. You seem to do this a lot. And your view is Myopic.

Have you really witnessed the AI having 10 religions in each of its cities by using missionaries? I personnally never have in any of my games.
Though again, AI is not the main reason why it's broken, but I've already said that.

 

[Noriad2]

Have you really witnessed the AI having 10 religions in each of its cities by using missionaries? I personnally never have in any of my games.
Though again, AI is not the main reason why it's broken, but I've already said that.

No but I have seen the AI spam missionaries on several occasions. It *may* depend on leader personality though. So I assume that if the game lasts long enough, the AI will spread its religions everywhere eventually.

If you take out a feature just because the AI makes suboptimal use of it, you might as well delete the whole game. The AI gets economic bonuses (or the player gets economic penalties) at higher difficulty levels to compensate for suboptimal play by the AI.

The big problem here is that having a religion in a city is only positive. Although this is "politically correct" it is also wildly ahistorical. Even today, you only have to open the newspaper to notice religious tension or even open warfare between followers of the different religions or religious schisms.

The game would benefit from a negative modifier "religious tension" that grows exponentially with the number of religions or schisms present inside the same city (with monotheistic religions tending to be the most intolerant), and is modified by difficulty level and certain civics. Which would make it an attractive option to have only 1 (or a very limited number of) religions: "A nation that prays together stays together".

The most logical place to implement would be the Revolutions mod. Currently, Revolutions is a bit lackluster (i.e. nerfed to death): As long as you build a few stability bonus buildings, your cities will be rock stable even at deity level. Only if you completely neglect crime you may have any chance of any rebellion at all. Which is not something a moderately capable player would do.
Adding religious tension to REV would create an interesting risk/reward choice to religions.

For those who play without REV, religious tension could result in increased unhappiness (and an exponential increase of unhappiness with number of religions). If this results in unhappy citizens, there should be a chance of a religious revolt, which removes one religion and/or its buildings from the city, either by massacre, conversion by the sword, or expulsion. Each of which happened many times in history. Again, add religions to your city at your own risk. Or add religions to the other civ's cities at their risk. (The main reason for the decision of the Tokugawa rulers to close Japan to all immigration was to keep out Christianity).

 

[Rwn]

No but I have seen the AI spam missionaries on several occasions. It *may* depend on leader personality though. So I assume that if the game lasts long enough, the AI will spread its religions everywhere eventually.

If you take out a feature just because the AI makes suboptimal use of it, you might as well delete the whole game. The AI gets economic bonuses (or the player gets economic penalties) at higher difficulty levels to compensate for suboptimal play by the AI.

I've also seen the AI use missionaries quite alright, but never even close to the cheesy tactic a dedicated human player can use to optimize the yield from religious buildings (yes, I've spread about 10 religions in my cities with missionnaries in one of my first games to cumulate the effects of the religious buildings of those 10 religions, no need to say my cities and my whole civ were ridiculously overpowered after that).

Anyway, my point is not that the AI can't do it (though it's certainly another argument in that direction), but that cumulating identical religious buildings makes the game crazily unbalanced. While I can understand that missionary temples and cathedrals give significant bonuses, being able to replicate their effects because you have several religions doesn't make any sense, be it from a historical, realism or game balance point of view.

And the idea is not to take out the feature, just not make it on by default. Well, meaning turning on the "Religious Disabling", or changing how the religious buildings give bonuses so that you can't cumulate their huge bonuses, or even, as you suggest, giving so strong penalties to having multiple religions in a city that it's not possible to abuse it.

 

[Arakhor]

I think that Noriad's ideas has legs, so to speak, but it would need to be coded properly and it would be a bad idea to add anything new to the mod so close to an alleged release.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Have you really witnessed the AI having 10 religions in each of its cities by using missionaries? I personnally never have in any of my games.
Though again, AI is not the main reason why it's broken, but I've already said that.

Yes multiple games, and it's because of the Options I Use and do Not Use both at set up and in BUG. I have very very much of a history with this aspect of the Mod. And why I'll "fight" over even subtle changes to the way Religions and the Options that Allow Religions to spread being tapered with. But why are you trying to limit this to "only by missionaries"?

Look if you want a Mod that only allows a player or AI 1 religion, then use those Options that restrict. But Do Not presume that because it's what you prefer that this is the Only way to play. Or any other way of play is "broken".

It is things like this that show the diversity this mod has brought. But continually there are those that want to narrow it down to only their point of view. Don't fall into that trap and it is a trap.

And to Noriad2's idea, putting into REV would be just fine. But leave it out of the other part of the Mod. There are already enough Other factors.

For those who play without REV, religious tension could result in increased unhappiness (and an exponential increase of unhappiness with number of religions). If this results in unhappy citizens, there should be a chance of a religious revolt, which removes one religion and/or its buildings from the city, either by massacre, conversion by the sword, or expulsion. Each of which happened many times in history. Again, add religions to your city at your own risk. Or add religions to the other civ's cities at their risk. (The main reason for the decision of the Tokugawa rulers to close Japan to all immigration was to keep out Christianity).

JosEPh

 

[Rwn]

Yes multiple games, and it's because of the Options I Use and do Not Use both at set up and in BUG. I have very very much of a history with this aspect of the Mod. And why I'll "fight" over even subtle changes to the way Religions and the Options that Allow Religions to spread being tapered with. But why are you trying to limit this to "only by missionaries"?

Look if you want a Mod that only allows a player or AI 1 religion, then use those Options that restrict. But Do Not presume that because it's what you prefer that this is the Only way to play. Or any other way of play is "broken".

Each time I read a new answer of yours, I'm under the impression that you're talking about something different than I

I'm talking about the RELIGIOUS_DISABLING option here. This option prevents bonuses from religious buildings belonging to different religions in a city from being cumulated (so if you have 5 cathedrals in a city, they yield a +50% bonus, not a whooping +250%). It doesn't change anything to religion spreading or prevent the player in any way from having more than 1 or any number of religions in a city - maybe you're confusing it with RELIGION_DECAY?

We're not even talking about removing or making an option invisible here, just whether this option should be checked or unchecked by default

It is things like this that show the diversity this mod has brought. But continually there are those that want to narrow it down to only their point of view. Don't fall into that trap and it is a trap.

Isn't it a bit what you're doing?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Each time I read a new answer of yours, I'm under the impression that you're talking about something different than I

I'm talking about the RELIGIOUS_DISABLING option here. This option prevents bonuses from religious buildings belonging to different religions in a city from being cumulated (so if you have 5 cathedrals in a city, they yield a +50% bonus, not a whooping +250%). It doesn't change anything to religion spreading or prevent the player in any way from having more than 1 or any number of religions in a city - maybe you're confusing it with RELIGION_DECAY?

We're not even talking about removing or making an option invisible here, just whether this option should be checked or unchecked by default

Yep you are right. Do What ever you want with Religious Disabling Except making it On by default and Invisible.

The rest is my "passion" for Not letting others drift over to "hinder" Other Religious Options that Allow Multiple Religions and their spread for both Player and AI alike.

Isn't it a bit what you're doing?

Nope, but I can see how you would think that, given that I went on a tangent.

 

[Noriad2]

I'm talking about the RELIGIOUS_DISABLING option here. This option prevents bonuses from religious buildings belonging to different religions in a city from being cumulated (so if you have 5 cathedrals in a city, they yield a +50% bonus, not a whooping +250%). It doesn't change anything to religion spreading or prevent the player in any way from having more than 1 or any number of religions in a city - maybe you're confusing it with RELIGION_DECAY?

I must admit that I'm not entirely familiar with the option RELIGIOUS_DISABLING as I never play with it, and may have gotten wrong impressions from the name. I do agree that if there are many religions present in a city with their respective cathedrals, probably very few inhabitants would visit all of them on a regular basis, lessening the effects of individual cathedrals.

But removing all bonuses from the different cathedrals beyond the first one sounds a bit harsh, as that would make building them a waste of time, but perhaps it cherrypicks the best bonuses from the existing cathedrals? But maybe the option already does that? Like I said I am not familiar with the option.

The only info I have comes from the in-game popup:
"Religious buildings of non-state religion go mostly inactive by default but effect may be avoided by strategic decisions. WARNING: Option in Beta Testing phase and under further ongoing development."
Which is a description that leaves as many questions as it gives anwers. What about if you don't have a state religion? And what are these "strategic decisions"?

 

[Noriad2]

EDIT: nevermind.

 

[Faustmouse]

@Noriad:

With this option active, all non-state religion buildings become a building that has only a cost and NO other effects at all: Neither good nor bad ones. If you don't have a state religion, than you obviously don't have the fitting state religion for any religous building. Thus they are all useless.

This behaviour could be almost ok if you run Intolerant or Atheism. But certainly not for Sericular. And for most other civics temples and monestaries would at least give some . But yeah, that's just how this option works...