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[GS] Gathering Storm Leader Ability Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by NullNullError, Aug 30, 2019.

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  1. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,892
    Location:
    Poland
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [19]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [3+1=4]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [24]
    14. Gorgo - Thermopylae [5-3=2]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [24]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [14]

    Dido: three civics and you got State Workforce Civic. Then you build gov plaza. With gov plaza your capital Has +50%! to construction of district AKA the biggest construction pain other than wonders. You also instantly get bonus trade route which matters at that stage (as you have 1, 2 at most) and second one from ancient era building, and third one for medieval era gov building. You ALSO get to move capital which would be almost useless normally but this is essential for Phoenician UA. And all that synergizes with other Phoenician ancient bonuses to strong early start.

    Gorgo: this is not bad ability. It means when you fight a lot you also somewhat increase your civic progress. But 'passively decent' is slowly start to be not enough at this stage of the contest, and Phoenician LA gives more room for power if you are creative.
     
  2. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,883
    Location:
    Lebanon
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [19]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4 + 1 = 5]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [24]
    14. Gorgo - Thermopylae [2 - 3 = Eliminated]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [24]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [14]

    Dido: One person spam downvoting the same civ over and over again... Guess I'll upvote twice. Same reasoning.

    Gorgo: Same as above.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  3. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,442
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [19]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [6] (5+1) The move capital project can net a good amount of extra income, but the extra trade routes bring her up to the point where I don't think it's time got her to go yet.
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [21] (24-3) The faith bonus is no better than Gorgo's culture bonus. Even with the faith purchase ability, she's not outshining the other leaders left.
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [24]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [14]
     
  4. 679x

    679x Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Messages:
    262
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm sad to see my boy Wilfrid go, though admittedly his leader bonus only becomes powerful at the Conservation civic when you get the ability to plant woods to put BUFFED lumber mills on, and Mounties to build national parks in your swathes of tundra woodlands. I never really considered the strategic resource boost being irrelevant since Canada is a pacifist civ - I suppose you can still trade the excess resources to your allies.

    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [20] (19+1) I used to think France was the worst civ in the game, in part because Catherine's ability was useless. But I have since learned otherwise, and just ended a game as France where my spies went rampant and I got bookoo bucks from anyone and everyone, which is probably how just about every game as Catherine goes! And the combat boost from intel is nothing to scoff at. You get a free +3 right from the start. Throw your free spy onto someone's city and install a listening post and you can easily reach max visibility. One thing I previously didn't realize is that having this much visibility lets you see when opponents are building wonders! Dang, how useful that is! France's civ ability is literally all about building wonders, so knowing when you can compete or when you'll lose the wonder race is something I found very handy on multiple occasions. And the free promotion lets you get going with your spies right from the get-go. I'm glad I learned how fun this ability truly is.
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [6]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [21]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [24]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [11] (14-3) I deeply miss having free units on every city in a foreign continent, rather than just in the first per continent. Even if your capital is on the cusp of two different continents, it's nothing crazy broken, but it was fun. In the new version of the ability, there are usually only so many different continents that you can safely cram a city onto without losing it to loyalty, so I wouldn't expect to see more than 2-3 free units from that. Yea, the dockyard grants a free boat, and you get more trade routes, but... eh. I dunno. Things just seem to go a little too slow for my liking here, and unlike Canada, I don't ever really find it particularly fun.
     
  5. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    644
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [20]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [6]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [22] (21+1) I really enjoy the unique gameplay as the only civ/leader to be able to buy naval units with faith. Since Indonesia is as coastal as they get, being able to instantly buy a huge navy for defense, and also freeing up production for your cities instead of wasting it spending turns on ships is a great bonus design that is effective and usable every game. The +2 faith bonus doesn't sound like much but does insure you getting first choice of pantheon (except if Mali is there and has a desert start).
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [21] (24-3) This won the game last time and I was an ardent supporter of it. It's still a fantastic ability.... But, this is Gathering Storm now. Before Rome really had the upper hand in early culture generation, but this bonus isn't as special as it once was now that everybody has access to Pingala.
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [11]
     
  6. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    394
    Gender:
    Male
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]=20+1 +3 CS to all units against players by default and scale upward, just by that alone is better than +7 CS against city-states, you don't win games by killing city-states. The main thing is you have more spies, your spies are better, and since more and more missions have been introduced for spies, this ability has insane versatility, from science, culture, diplomacy to just being a pure nuisance for your opponents. What exactly can Frederick's ability do to compare to this?
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [6]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [22]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [18]=21-3 Since the change to Pingala, the lead you have as Trajan is not that significant anymore. Still good, but not #1 ability like in R&F thread.
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [11]
     
  7. Datgingah

    Datgingah Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2019
    Messages:
    150
    Gender:
    Male
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [3] =6-3 Decent, but definitely on the weaker end of the abilities listed here, I think its time may have come. A reduction in the cost of the project to change capitals, and maybe adding the bonus production to districts in the capital and the government plazas would make this ability be much more viable in my opinion.
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [22]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [26]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [19]=18+1 While I understand how the above posters think Pingala makes this weaker, I will note that this is the strongest in the early game pre political philosophy. So pingala would be relevant for maybe 10 turns of the fifty in the early game. Weaker, but still much stronger the much on this list still.
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [11]
     
  8. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    529
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [3]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [19] (22-3) I feel like this actually kind of flew under my radar. Strange that this is still around when several better abilities are gone.
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [20]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [27] (26+1) This part of Tomyris's kit is always relevant and very powerful.
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [19]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [11]
     
  9. Ceydezed

    Ceydezed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2018
    Messages:
    89
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [22]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [3]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [19]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17] = 20-3 This requires a lot of investment: founding a religion (sure its easy with Saladin), building 1 district and 3 buildings in your holy site (and if you played on Saladin's strength you didn't spam HS from turn 1 on all your cities). Good for sure when it's all set, and super good if you are playing large (which, you should) - but takes some time to pay off.
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28] = 27+1 - i usually don't upvote purely military abilities as often bored by them, but this also works for religious units, and gosh is it useful. You can have group of +6 or +9 charges apostles that are almost unkillable and can go through the entire map just wiping out competition.
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [19]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [11]
     
  10. NullNullError

    NullNullError Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2019
    Messages:
    55
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19] 22-3 It's only good if you are going warring and even then it should get docked some points for the name. Cyrus Fall of Babylon while one of the top abilities is currently killer of Cyrus. An ability that only gives you an advantage in a warring state while not giving you an advantage for fighting is kinda bad. It's really bad in Multiplayer Sessions as other players can just surprise declare you to take away the bonus or force you to declare so early that you don't get the bonus as all your units are too far away. In most cases his ability reads "+5 Loyalty per turn in occupied cities with a garrisoned unit." which shouldn't survive as long. The only reason this ability is still here is because of bad ai.
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [3]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [19]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [18]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [19]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12] 11+1 Victoria is almost a stright up better Gitarja, while Gitarja has to buy her ships Victoria just gets them for free. The additional trade routes even allow her to keep upgrading them/buying them later on.
    She gets a Unique unit in addition to that and a few melee units. The only Advantage Gitarja has over Victoria is that she gets her Pantheon early.
     
  11. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,662
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    IOMG, what is Mansa Musa doing here still?
    Mali is very thematic, but all about desert does not mean synergy. In fact Mansa's ability is in great conflict, not synergy

    OK, let me explain.

    I know it is fun to see quite a lot of gold on mouseover, but it does not tell everything. For example opportunity cost. And some other minor stuff.
    So some reasons to downvote Mansa Musa.

    1) Gold purchasing strategy. If you want to rushbuy everything, diplomatic favor is a way to go, no international trade routes. If you are so excited about earning "so much" with Mansa's trade rotes, try America, Sweden, Greece, Hungary. You would be amazed, how much more gold you will get from their abilities instead of international routes. Of course Mansa is still crazy rich, because....

    2) Mines. It is main moneymaker for Mali. +4 gold per mine for -1 production - it is the main source of Mali income. Of course penalty on production is not nice, but you still want to work mines. But mines are often food negative (more likelu to see plains around desert), so you want food. And you can take it from....

    3) Internal trade routes. And a bit of production too from these routes. But you are sending international routes now, right? So we have a problem.

    So let us do some maths.
    Usually the most beneficial city for trade routes is sth about +10 gold per route.Can be more, but that city will be dead with no production and tiles to work, but let us be crazy and say 16/route (supposing you spend cash to buy all those desert tiles) -optimistic version. Sincerely, this is something achievable for any civ: great zimbabwe in city with 5 bonuses in realistic or 8 bonuses in optimistic version. Doable for any civ, except Mali. mali cannot into GZ, because - flat desert city will have no chance too build it and flat desert is poor with bonus resources.

    Another example/
    10 pop Malian city, campus, commerce district, holy shrine, city center, theatre. Add magnus on top of that. it is 0,7 production (1-30%) 6 food! And you know what is 6 food? it is supporting 6 plain hill mines. yep. 6x4 = 24 gold. 16 without Magnus. And you still get that, what Mali lacks the most - production from mines. But you were supposed to earn +16 in very optmistic version from international routes!. Mamma mia! .

    Summary
    Because of overpowered mines, internal trade is the way to go with Mali, to feed those mines. +4 gold/mine makes Mali the MOST synergising civ with internel trade routes, together with Persia - these 2 civs want to run internal routes only, except city state quests. And that makes leader ability in great conflict and little to no use. It is a trap, you earn less with international routes than you can earn from internal only.
    And if we talk about earning cash from internal routes....

    Let us take a closer look at Poundmaker Using more accurate version of +10 per route as Mansa. Having 4-6 pastures/camps in main incoming Cree's trade hub is common, so this amount is guaranteed from your internal routes. But you get even more food in sending cities and this food translates directly to population = in worst case +4 from specialist in market. So equals? No. Poundmaker still receives cash from incoming international routes. City state, alles, and so on. And in opposite to sending trade routes, receiving trade routes can be boosted by great merchants. So Cree beat Mali's trading abilities, by settling one specific pasture/camp location, and this city is far more productive than Malian city for outgoing trade routes.
    And where is Poundmaker? Eliminated. Time for Mali too

    Oh, there is also the second part, +1 trade route per golden age. But Mali is hard to get golden age in ancient and classical, cannot earn so much score with low production. First golden age is typically 3rd era, because of mass converting. Let us compare it to others. Cree get only +1, but at pottery. And Dido kills this part of ability completely.

    Ameno.

    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4] 3+1 Final breath for Dido, colonial cards + settler spam + easy trade routes. There is also hidden leader ability of Dido. make her angry, and watch her threatening you. Do you still want her to go? #saveDido
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [19]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [24]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [15] 18-3 As explained above.
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [19]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12]
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Krajzen likes this.
  12. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Messages:
    813
    Gender:
    Male
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4] I don't think people are ganging up on Dido particularly. That seemed to be a bigger issue on the last thread. IMO it looks like its time for all the extra trade route granters to go, which includes Dido...
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [19]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [23]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25] (24+1) Someone asked why this was good when theming was 'easy.' It's about when as much as how. With this ability as soon as you can theme anything, you've themed everything. Other leaders can do that eventually but in the mean time Kristina is constantly picking up the extra tourism she needs to win.
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12] (15-3) As above posted not sure why Musa survived this long. Maybe he was hiding amoung all the other M-leaders. The main thing is the free trade routes and there are better abilities out there.

    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [19]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12]
     
  13. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,862
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [19]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [20] (23 - 3) I just don't like any of the abilities that grant a bonus for 10 turns after some event happens. Especially when one of the triggers is outside of the player's control and the other nearly is.
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [22]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [20] (19 + 1) How can this be below 20? The idea that Pingala is in any way comparable to this ability is madness. Trajan gets his Monument on turn 1, which helps him get the first two Governor Titles and then Political Philosophy. Pingala needs those first two Titles to generate any reasonable amount of Culture. Besides, going with Pingala first means not going with Magnus first, which means losing population when you build Settlers and not having stronger harvests for early Wonders and Districts. And, Rome could just stack Column + Pingala, if that's what you're about. This ability is by far one of the best in the game.
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12]
     
  14. Architect

    Architect Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    514
    Gender:
    Male
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [24]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [16] - (19-3)Navy with faith is ok but one of the worst left.
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [28]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [20]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23] (22 + 1) Jannisary's are very good and very cheap.
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [20]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12]
     
  15. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,260
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [21] 24 - 3 Pretty good, but not always easy to satisfy the conditions. If the borders aren't close enough (I believe they have to be touching), you may not get the CB. Which can be tough in the early game when you want to use those elephants. Cyrus is a little more flexible so I rank that one higher, though he doesn't get the combat bonus, but loyalty bonus is pretty nifty.
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [16]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [29] = 28 + 1 Raiding game is pretty good now. And this applies to all Naval melee ships, so no need to worry about it being good only in the early game. It can provide all game long.
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [20]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [20]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12]
     
  16. _Calyx

    _Calyx Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    111
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [21]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [13] (16-3) Not sure how this is still here, as some way stronger abilities (like Frederick's) have been eliminated.
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [29]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [20]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [21] (20+1) early culture is incredibly valuable, and Trajan's is the best.
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [12]
     
  17. monstercat

    monstercat Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2019
    Messages:
    142
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [21]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [4]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [13]
    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [29]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [21] (20 + 1) +100% Production is a lot, it is very useful to chain every 10 turns from liberating cities/city states. Also useful right at the same time you get your Diggers, you can use +100% Production all the way for your Spaceports. Very versatile ability.
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [21]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [9] (12 - 3) Free melee units are nice, but not game-changing, and the Redcoat isn't that great a unique unit too
     
  18. Pure24

    Pure24 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2019
    Messages:
    191
    . Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [21]
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [1] (4 - 3). As has been said, the move city project is too expensive and doesn't synergise with any benefits to make it truly consequence. The production bonus only affects one city (unlike, say, Amanitore or John Curtin). And the +1 trade route is not as good as Pax Britannica because for the latter all one needs to do is place a city anywhere within a certain location
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [14] (13 + 1). Clearly an ability meant for water maps. I like the variation. Yes, not so beneficial on
    pangea. Just as Maori's bonus is not so good on pangea either. Or Russia's outside of Tundra.
    And if you have water maps, being able to get an early pantheon, your religious units moving quickly AND buying cheap Jongs is kinda awesome.
    Not the best ability, but... a +1 from me just this once

    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [29]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [21]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [21]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [9]
     
  19. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    725
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra [18] = 21 - 3 Not good for peacemongering.
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [1]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [14]

    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [29]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [21]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12] If you understand Mali, you don't undervalue their trade routes. First, you only need *one* good desert city to send from (just like Great Zimbabwe). Second, this city in particular cares nothing for growth or production, it's there for the sole purpose of being a gold factory (it also gains up to 6 bonus food and faith in the city center with good desert placement, allowing it to grow to 4 pop for 2 districts without any other food sources or tiles). Third, you're focusing solely on this one city having as much flat desert as possible, which can be anywhere 0 (low extreme) to 36 (high extreme) flat tiles for up to 36 bonus gold per trade route coming out of it. Nothing else in the entire game even comes close.
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of the Faith [17]
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [22] = 21 + 1 Gorgo's ability is stronger but this one is still very good.
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [9]
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Pure24 likes this.
  20. SagarRathore

    SagarRathore Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Gender:
    Male
    1. Alexander - To The World's End [24]
    3. Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [21]
    4. Chandragupta - Arthashastra - 19 [18+1] fun ability nd good Synergy with Varu...Moreover fit Chanakya's beware of ur neighbour concept.
    6. Cyrus - Fall of Babylon [19]
    7. Dido - Founder of Carthage [1]
    13. Gitarja - Exalted Goddess of the Three Worlds [14]

    15. Harald Hardrada - Thunderbolt of the North [29]
    16. Hojo Tokimune - Divine Wind [22]
    19. John Curtin - Citadel of Civilization [21]
    20. Kristina - Minerva of the North [25]
    23. Mansa Musa - Sahel Merchants [12]
    24. Matthias Corvinus - Raven King [26]
    25. Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    29. Pericles - Surrounded by Glory [24]
    33. Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29]
    35. Saladin - Righteousness of Faith -14[17-3] interesting ability suits Arabian civilization but not a big fan of religious game.
    37. Suleiman - Grand Vizier [23]
    38. Shaka - Amabutho [22]
    40. Teddy Roosevelt - Roosevelt Corollary [25]
    41. Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [28]
    42. Trajan - Trajan's Column [22]
    43. Victoria - Pax Britannica [9]
     
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