Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[Matt_G]

Brad,
Since a heavy research strat is the cornerstone of this quick domination style, I am curious as to why there isn't a monastary in the capital?
My recollection is a monastary give +10% research and it's not dependant on a certain civic...

 

[DJMGator13]

I notice there is a scientist in Olly…do we need him? It seems to me we should just keep growing way beyond the happy limit and pop rush for multiple citizens whenever we can.

I created him to help keep the growth rate down. I wasn't sure how often we can apply the whip.

As for the type of game, if Bede can post some screen shots when he makes contact that may help solidify which way to go. If we have a good tech lead then I'd say the no/low research route is the way to proceed. If we are nearly even with Mali then I'm not sure. It may also help to decide which techs to trade for. I was going to do this if contact was made during my turnset.

@Bede, please make a save before you do any trading. It might make for some good practice to play around with that trading session later.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Brad. This is a very interesting post. I am amazed at the twists and turns and how detailed the thought process needs to be to get to our goal. Is there a table somewhere that lists what each of the Great People will research if you use one to rush a tech that takes into account what techs you have? My head is spinning!

In case it needs to be said, I'm still on the fast domination bandwagon.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Brad,
Since a heavy research strat is the cornerstone of this quick domination style, I am curious as to why there isn't a monastary in the capital?

That was part of the plan to get to Chemistry ASAP then turn off research and conquer. If Meditation is researched, then a great scientist will go toward philosophy instead of Chemistry. That is why we don't have Meditation or Monasteries.

In hindsight, I don't think it was a good choice. And if we do wind up playing a research game, then not researching Meditation was a God-awful choice. It works out much better when running caste system. In the caste system strategy I was originally intending to use, we would have used 4 Great People for techs in this game.

I am amazed at the twists and turns and how detailed the thought process needs to be to get to our goal. Is there a table somewhere that lists what each of the Great People will research if you use one to rush a tech that takes into account what techs you have? My head is spinning!

I am probably getting into too much detail. If we were just going for domination and not "earliest conceivable domination" a la GoTM, then everything would be a lot simpler. I probably should have waited until we had played a game or two together before going with such a complex strategy. I think it definitely would have been a good idea to leave out the Great People for techs part at least: those strategies require careful timing on the births and a lot of forethought.

Also, since we decided to try slavery instead of Caste System, we don't have as much control over the GP birth process as I am used to.

My Great Leader Spreadsheet is here.

Use sorts in order to see which techs you will get for a great person. For example, if you want to see what you will get for a scientist, sort by "Scientist" "decending" then by "Base Cost" "ascending". After that, the tech you will get will be the first one listed that you have not yet researched but have met the prerequisites to research.

 

[Bezhukov]

You lose one unhappy from whipping every ten turns, you incur one per whip, no matter how many pop you spend, so the more expensive thing whipped (like our non-discounted forges), the better. Optimally, Ollan would have whipped a forge, then a harbor, then later a market and/or a uni (to help get Oxford in Cuzco). With the iron showing up near Ollan, once the tile was improved, whipping wasn't completely necessary there (working the iron ten turns yields 40 hammers itself), but with double seafood, its hard to pass up all those free hammers. Alternatively, one could build infra/units while growing, and use the whip for workers/settlers without impeding growth somewhere else.

Some people like to wait to spend unhappy pop on whips, but I usually will whip down to the fastest growth rate (in this case down to two pop - the seafood tiles) to maximize the benefits while also preserving a cushion of happiness. If we want to use Ollan to grow cottages for Cuzco, then down to 4 pop.

We really haven't made very good use of slavery or CS in this game.

Calling Brad's approach cookie-cutter is too severe, but I am dubious as to how optimal it would be with an isolated start on Monarch with significant stretches of dry terrain. As we've diverged from it now, I guess we won't find out though.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

We really haven't made very good use of slavery or CS in this game.

Shoot, I thought we were doing ok on the whips. How could we have used slavery more effectively?

Also, I don't suppose you know of an SG or turorial where they made excellent use of slavery, do you? If so, I would love to read it.

 

[Bezhukov]

I suspect you're just the guy to write one. Seriously. Play the 1000AD scenario as England a few times and report back in a month. You'll be a pro.

 

[Bezhukov]

As for this game, both Ollan and Cori should have been whipping as soon as the pop was available. For a two seafood city like Ollan, you can wait eleven for the first pop to whip a workboat, or, better, have a workboat ready. Then its:

five turns: grow, whip second boat (one pop - one unhappy)
four turns: grow (two pop)
four turns: grow, whip granary (one pop - one unhappy)
four turns: grow (two pop)
two turns: grow, whip lighthouse (one pop - one unhappy)

Now you're good, growth every two turns, with each full box worth 30 hammers - 150 hammers every 10 turns to spend as you wish.

Note: I was the guy who didn't get full use at Ollan, as for some reason I decided to build the second boat out of Tiawanku.

 

[DJMGator13]

I definately need to work on my whipping skills more. I keep starting games and playing them thru to earlier AD then retiring from them and starting another. Trying to get the hang of the opening sequences. I've still only run the first 4OTM to completion.

I was doing real good in a game the over the weekend, got the Oracle, was following Brad's tech path. I had researched up to Guilds in 1250AD and then I discovered that I never converted to Conf. after building the Oracle. So I had played from 1040BC to 1250AD without gaining the +commerce and hammers. When I met the others civs I was only slightly ahead. I can't believe I ruined a good game.

 

[leif erikson]

I am probably getting into too much detail. If we were just going for domination and not "earliest conceivable domination" a la GoTM, then everything would be a lot simpler. I probably should have waited until we had played a game or two together before going with such a complex strategy. I think it definitely would have been a good idea to leave out the Great People for techs part at least: those strategies require careful timing on the births and a lot of forethought.

I think you're doing just fine. I may not understand it all yet, but now I am aware that it is there and that there are things I can experiment with in order to help me begin to gain some control over the game. Your explainations have been top notch and I appreciate your time in developing the info for us to chew on.

And the same goes for Bez as well. It has caused me to think, and that is a good thing!

I only hope that by the end, I have something of value to contribute. On to SGOTM09 for a while...

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I keep starting games and playing them thru to earlier AD then retiring from them and starting another.

I do the same. I've probably played 40 games to 500 AD, but less than 8 through to the end. There is still much to experiment with.

Your explainations have been top notch and I appreciate your time in developing the info for us to chew on.

Thanks Leif. I have learned a great deal from this thread too (especially from Bez ). I have a couple of new strategy ideas that revolve around slavery that I need to test out at some point. I've also gotten a better grip on the strategies I currently use: you guys ask very good questions, and the process of trying to explain things has forced me to understand the game much better. I still have a long way to go though!

 

[Bezhukov]

Brad, you are absolutely brilliant. Hence my concern that your "turning off research" approach will be so influential that it molds people's basic expectations of "how the game is played" in a way I believe is damaging to its long-term viability.

Next perhaps to Sirian, you are the most cogent and insightful writer on Civ strategy I've read.

BTW, if you think slavery is interesting, just wait until you get your hands on drafting! Although I fear that it may be narrowly optimal to expend the beakers necessary to get there on other things.

 

[Matt_G]

I just want to echo what others have already said.
This thread is top notch.

I'm looking forward to seeing how all this turns out.
I hope you guys do another in the near future, and take a different road to victory, perhaps following Bez's preferred method. I'd love to see that played out as well. SG's like this one are an awesome learning tool.

Kudos to the whole team!

 

[Bezhukov]

Big thanks, Matt_G! I did indeed play RaR, see:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=114186

Any word on an RaR for CivIV, what ever happened to the good DocTS?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

@Bez: My goodness, thanks man. There are many guys that I would put above me in civ strategy writing, but it was very kind of you to say.

As much as I know about the math behind the game, there are a few guys out there that make me feel downright inadequate. I swear they don't see settlers, hills and axmen like we do: they see some Matrix-like cascade of numbers and probabilities on their screens.

I can't take credit for the turning off research thing: it is a pretty widespread strategy. I don't think it will hurt Civ4 in the long run, because when/if to turn off research can vary dramatically from game to game. For me, trying to figure out when (or if) to do it just adds a little spice to the game. All in all, I think the designers did a good job of balancing and increasing the value of self research. I think it is very unlikely that anyone will come up with a formula for researching and turning off research that will work in every game--or at least I hope not.

The only strategy that I really dislike is the other one we used in this game: the Civil Service Slingshot. It is too powerful, and as a result is taking a lot of the variety out of the GoTM.

And now that I think of it, this SG isn't going to make matters any better.

 

[Bede]

Events to date:

Turn 130 (375 AD)
Contact made: Chinese Empire to the west

So let's see what he has to offer

Machu Picchu begins: Maceman, the first of a horde.

Turn 131 (400 AD)
Contact made: Malinese Empire to the east

Let's see what he has to offer

No deals have been made as I want to get the insights of the gang.

And the 400AD save is attached

My impulse would be to trade for Currency with the Mali and move on making no further deals with anyone. then build a caravel on the east coast and load a missionary to convert Mansa to the faith.

 

[Matt_G]

Big thanks, Matt_G! I did indeed play RaR, see:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=114186

Any word on an RaR for CivIV, what ever happened to the good DocTS?

I haven't conversed with those guys in quite awhile. RL intervened and I had to leave the RAR scene. I don't know if those guys are thinking of doing a mod for CIV or not. I kind of doubt it, but I could be wrong. (I hope I am...)
I do know that Isak worked on CIV along with Sirian and others. You can sure see a lot of RAR in this game can't you?
Kal-El, Isak, RobO and everyone else who had a hand in creating RAR have a lot to be proud of IMO.

 

[Bezhukov]

Looks like we can pick up both currency and construction - the cheaper techs are better to just self-research so we don't hit the "too advanced" limit too quickly. I'd hold off on trades until we have a few more contacts tho, to get a better feel for the diplomatic situation and who we want to like us, as well as what opportunities exist for n-fers.

 

[Bezhukov]

"The only strategy that I really dislike is the other one we used in this game: the Civil Service Slingshot. It is too powerful, and as a result is taking a lot of the variety out of the GoTM."

That's funny, I was 6 of 7 on emperor before I'd ever considered it (I'd grabbed Metal Casting and, I think, Alphabet (!) the two times I'd bothered with the Oracle). The two games where I've tried for it since, I've missed getting the Oracle altogether, so it's not exactly a sure thing - the AI on the higher levels puts a pretty high priority on getting it quickly.

Unless two of the following three conditions are met:

A. Industrious civ
B. Start with Mysticism, hence in the religious tree early
C. Easy access to marble

I'm not convinced that going for the Oracle is worth it. Those hammers could be two settlers! Those techs could be training your workers! The opportunity cost is not trivial.

"I think it is very unlikely that anyone will come up with a formula for researching and turning off research that will work in every game--or at least I hope not."

Well, that's the problem, in that few players get to the point of using formulas at all. Me, for instance; I pretty much just play by feel. A lot of that feel comes from reading stronger players and following their lead without a whole lot of reflection, so what players like you do becomes "the standard moves". I'd prefer an SG environment where the standard move is not turning off research half-way through the game with a financial civ.

 

[leif erikson]

My impulse would be to trade for Currency with the Mali and move on making no further deals with anyone. then build a caravel on the east coast and load a missionary to convert Mansa to the faith.

The question is, what are we willing to give for Currency? Old Mansa is no fool. He wants Monotheism,Monarchy and Civil Service! He is in the Representation civic as well. I would be hesistate to give up Civil Service to him as it is a big step towards Maces.

Mao has Theology and Currency in red. Can't even negotiate for it! He wantsa Monarchy and Lit for Construction. I would do this.

Tjhe graphs are interesting. We are ahead in all categories, except for power. I think we expected that, given the size of our military. We are swamping them in Gold and, I am alittle surprised, by Manufatured Goods.

Doesn't look like we've met the big civ yet, does it?