Gator03 - School Time

[DJMGator13]

A potential SGOTM02 Practice Game for the Xteam, but more to drum into leif and my brains how to play this game properly. Hopefully, Redbad and Bede can impart some of their wisdom to us or we may get sent to visit the Dean of Boys (aka Capt Buttkick).

I tried to match the details released for the 2nd SGOTM and this was the first start that did not have cattle in the starting area.


Roster (not order)
Gator
leif
Capt
Bede
Redbad
grahamiam

Here's a look at the details and the start.

The 4000BC save

 

[leif erikson]

Checking in!!

 

[Nares]

So, are you just trying to learn in general, or are you looking to put in a competitive score for SGOTM2?

 

[DJMGator13]

So, are you just trying to learn in general, or are you looking to put in a competitive score for SGOTM2?

I'd have to say a more competitive score. I think we have the basics it is the refining and optimizing of builds, civics, etc... that we need to develope more.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I'm in, 10 chars.

 

[Bede]

Let's have some fun.

I'll take the start tonight if no one else has.

 

[Bede]

Edit: double post

 

[Redbad]

Thought of doing some HoMM 5 in the meantime, but this looks fun too.
The new SGOTM begins 2 days after the start of my vacation. I’m not sure if the camping will have a hotspot for WLAN. If it does I could participate else I’m going to miss out on the first 2 weeks.

About this game: Nice dilemma at the start already: where to settle?

We can see the next “bonuses”
3 food bonuses: floodplain, banana and corn
3 hammer bonuses: 2 grass hills and 1 desert hill
commerce bonus: the riverbanks

Dependent on what we prioritise we emphasise food, hammers, commerce and of course if we want to settle on the river or on the coast.
I’ve compared the settle positions using the knowledge we have in the starting pic. Of course the warrior move could bring info that could influence our decision on where to settle.

Food rich: in place
food: floodplain, banana and corn
hammers: 1 hill
commerce: 7 times riverbank
on the river

Hammer rich: 1 north
food: floodplain
hammers: 3 hills
commerce: 6 times riverbank
on the river

Commerce rich: 1 south east
food: floodplain, banana
hammers: 1 hill
commerce: 11 times riverbank
on the river

Coastal: 1 south
food: banana, corn
hammers: 2 hills
commerce: 8 times riverbank
on the coast

Surprisingly the coastal position scores second on all aspects. It looses 2 health points for not being on the river which means it needs an extra food at sizes 4 and 5. In return it can build a workboat for scouting and galleys should there be an opponent who can be reached through coastal waters.

As the sponsored victory condition is conquests and the map layout can’t be predicted it could turn out to be quite important being coastal or not. There for I myself tend to favour the southern position.

A special note on the position 2 south east. It could very well be coastal and riversided. But it looses out on some riverbanks and much of its garden is in the dark.

War tactics:
If it were an pangea I would be in favour of doing conquest on horseback. As SGOTM2 will not likely be a pangea, I think the early conquest could be done using axes. They will get 2 promotions when having a barracks and can later be upgraded to samurai. Unlike civ3 there’s little benefit in knocking out our next door rivals early. They can’t aid in the research anymore and the extra cities without having courts will hamper our research.

Research:
On the assumption we will need to sail the oceans to achieve conquest, our real goal in the early game really should be to get to astronomy asap. Astronomy and samurai is all we need if we get to it quickly.

 

[leif erikson]

Hi Guys,

Nice analysis of the start Redbad. I think you overlooked one very important aspect of this game, and that is defensibility. Or I could be making too much of it as well.

I've been playing some test games and Raging Barbs is a whole new game for me. There are never fewer than 4 Barb units within my city radius at one time and I've had up to 10 units within sight of the capital at some times.
I played an early worker, which was a waste of time because the Barbs ate all my improvements and were so numerous I could get out of the city and survive.

Thinking about it, I have decided to try building warriors to start, with an early rax once I feel safe, and then try to push out some units, preferably Archers, and place them in good defensive terrain in the hope that the barbs go after them instead of heading to the city. Research will be to Bronze in the hope that some copper is obtainable for axes as soon as possible. The real problem starts when the Barbs come calling with Axes and you're sitting there with Warriors or Archers, not pretty...

What other strats are out there to keep these raging barbs at bay????

 

[Redbad]

You're right we have to consider the raging barbs. But we must almost never think in terms of defensibility, not with barbs and not with AI opponents.

On monarch the barbs will hardly be able to field more threatning things then say swords and axes. Those units can easily be controlled by Japanese combat II axes. Actually they could be quite an advantage. Fighting barb units can give us up to 10 xp. That means combat III+ or combat I/cityraider III axes. Which will upgrade to supreme samurai.

Hearing your experience we better get to bronze asap. I personally don't like paying a visit to archery, but if the others think we should I won't object.

 

[leif erikson]

You're right we have to consider the raging barbs. But we must almost never think in terms of defensibility, not with barbs and not with AI opponents.

I should have thought of a better word. Let me try again. If all things are equal, or relatively so, settling on a hill is quite an advantage when Archers attack Warriors or Axes come calling!

On monarch the barbs will hardly be able to field more threatning things then say swords and axes. Those units can easily be controlled by Japanese combat II axes. Actually they could be quite an advantage. Fighting barb units can give us up to 10 xp. That means combat III+ or combat I/cityraider III axes. Which will upgrade to supreme samurai.

You're right. All my units were quickly to 10 experience points. The problem was that they can't go beyond 10 and the Barbs keep coming!!

Hearing your experience we better get to bronze asap. I personally don't like paying a visit to archery, but if the others think we should I won't object.

Yes, I did this as well. And guess what, no Copper anywhere in sight.

There is a good news side to this. I don't think the Barb onslaught came until around 75 or so turns had been played. I had built a worker and the worker had completed 3 cottages and a mine. I was completely unprepared for what followed, so I had to struggle. I had reconned a rather large area and when no copper was seen, I played a while longer and stopped for bed.

What I learned from this is that we need to use our first 50 to 75 turns wisely. We need enough units to fend off the Barbs and open a way to get to the copper and escort a settler there.

While I normally agree to skipping Archery, it is something we may need to consider, especially if there is no copper in sight.

The other thing I learned about playing Japan is that one needs cottages to maintain any research rate, unless we find some Gold or Gems. However, should we find Copper and can rush with Axes, that won't be quite as critical?

 

[Bede]

Being naturally a lazy sort of guy I think settling on the spot is very workable. Loses the hammers in the hill but we can trade that for capitol defense against the barbarians. Those who know me know that I don't think in terms of defense, but taking advantage of terrain when it is offered is just good business. But Redbad's logic on moving south is also compelling.

Building a rax in the capitol with raging barbs and being the Aggressive Japanese is a real waste. Train up a couple/three warriors and move them out to cover the hills and let the early barbarians train them up for us. Then if we happen to get Archery cheap, and get a barracks built we can train some archers for city, hill and forward forest/jungle defense. They don't do well in the open, but in a town or in cover are just fine against almost anything the bogies can throw at us. Barbarian Axes will eat warriors but don't do as well against Garrison archers with a few turns of fortification under their belt

Be prepared for everything to take twice as long as you expect as the barbarians are enough of a nuisance to slow things down, but as long as no settlers or workers are lost to them they do make a handy training ground for our heavy hitters. Losing settlers or workers are real setbacks as they cost population growth cycles to build. Another factor to consider is the impact of the other nations on the barbarians. If the map is tight with AI then they will clean out the barbs, if we are relatively isolated it's a whole 'nother story.

Finally, the fog of war needs to be pushed out to at least one hill's view outside the borders of any planned settlement. Keep some warriors on piquet duty at all times and try to keep a good circumference lit up.

 

[Bede]

Playing now. Post tomorrow, lots of Pictures.

 

[leif erikson]

Playing now. Post tomorrow, lots of Pictures.

Good luck. Hope those barb don't like posing for the camera!!

 

[Bede]

Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Turning on the resource indicators suggests that we are north of the Equator(Arrows point south)

And turning on the over view (Alt_F) seems to suggest that the river flows south to a delta

So the warrior goes NE and the settler 1S and Kyoto founded and starts a Warrior

Move the citizen to the high commerce riverbank and start on Mining

The jungle to the south suggests that we are close to the equator and that there will be more jungle in that direction. The resources that we need will not be found in jungle areas so the warrior explores north first.

Turn 1 (3970 BC)
Warrior climbs a hill and finds a fish

IBT:

Turn 2 (3940 BC)
Warrior hits the hut and we find friendly villagers who give us a valuable gift

This is a great boon and suggests a strategy for the development for the capitol into a high food specialist organized city with a reasonable hammer and commerce output.

If we set up this way we can research Writing and get a library up very quickly, then run two scientists for our first Great Scientist, as well as a reasonable research pace to the more expensive techs on our path to Samurai (Iron Working, Metal Casting, Machinery and Civil Service)

IBT:

Turn 3 (3910 BC)
The northerly cruising warrior finds a prime city spot which only gets better and better

 

[Bede]

IBT:

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

IBT:

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

IBT:

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

IBT:

Turn 7 (3790 BC)

IBT:

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

IBT:

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

IBT:

Turn 10 (3700 BC)

When the border expanded the citizen moves to the floodplains and the exploring warrior makes an unpleasant discovery to the east

as we meet the Sun King

The good news is we also learn Mining and start on Bronze Working

IBT:

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Meet the villagers on the western border of France and get a scout. Scout will continue SE while the warrior moves SW towards the capitol

Check out the French luxury goods.

IBT:

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
The warrior meets a bear in the forest while the scout runs away

IBT:
Buddhism founded in a distant land but not by anyone we know as no one converts


Turn 13 (3610 BC)
The warrior whups the bear but the scout meets a panther. He keeps running to
get across a river and on a jungle hill. Best chance he will ever get.

Turn 14 (3580 BC)

The panther attacks and Scout is hurt but still standing.
Kyoto grows and continues to work the high commerce fields (floodplain and banana)

 

[Bede]

IBT:

Turn 15 (3550 BC)

IBT:

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

IBT:

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

IBT:

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

IBT:
Meet the Roman Empire

There goes the neighborhood, organ grinders and monkeys, oh my!

Turn 19 (3430 BC)
Given the Romans perch on the hill I have no clue where he came from.

The happy wanderers are still recovering from their meeting with the local fauna

IBT:

Turn 20 (3400 BC)

IBT:

Turn 21 (3370 BC)
Kyoto equips a Warrior

IBT:

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Kyoto grows again and picks up a hammer

IBT:

Turn 23 (3310 BC)
The warrior is trained and heads NW. I put a turn on a workboat while Kyoto grows and then start a worker

With what appears to be a belt of jungle to the south of France I am going to head the Scout Northeast because that is where I will find the important ores

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
A wolf comes out of the jungle and tries to take a bite out the warrior. The wolf is dead and the warrior gets a Merit Badge (Woodsman I)

IBT:

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

IBT:

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
And the warrior heading NW steps out of the forest and meets a bogie

And whups him!

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
He too gets his Woodsman I Merit Badge

IBT:

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
And this is what the Scout has found in the east. Louis is sitting astride any path that does not involve the jungle. Bah!

IBT:

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Now comes the moment of truth!
Learn Bronze Working

IBT:

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Looks like City 2 is where it is happening

Start research on Pottery

I do not call for the civics change because it still will cost too much to whip the worker out.

I want to keep at least the two high commerce fields in use. Looks like the Research path should be Pottery=>Animal Husbandry (for Horses and the Cows to the east and it will be cheap as Louis at least is pasturing his pigs)=.>?

Pull the workboat out of queue and replace it with a Warrior as we won't be needing it for a while yet.

Overall the situation is pretty pleasant. The jungle to the east will be a barbarian breeding ground but Louis will patrol it pretty well. And with the traffic we will be seeing from the French and the Romans I have not much fear of too many bogies appearing where we want to settle. The scout should pull in to the east towards a hill that will give him the best view of the surroundings to the east while the warrior in the jungle should plant on the hill above City Site 2. That should keep the barbarian spawn to a minimum. The warrior to the west should continue until he finds another border then head back home. Or if you are feeling nervous he could pull back a little and cover the western approaches from a convenient location close to a forest he can get cover from when a bad guy appears. Right now he is hiding in a forest and licking his wounds, or maybe celebrating his promotion with the local Dryads

Finish the worker, then a warrior, then settler, then granary maybe. A lot depends on the level of barbarian activity coming from the jungles east. And what Julio and Louis feel like getting up to, though the barbarians may well provide an outlet for their more aggressive tendencies.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

In the sgotm (not here cause we obviously got lucky w/r to finding bronze) : Leif makes a good point with regards to archers and warriors vs. barbs axes.
I think we should consider continuing straight onto IW after Bronze (if there isn't bronze nearby). It's a gamble, but usually there is either bronze or iron close to the start imhso.

Excellent opening turns
I never find many huts, neither in 3 nor 4, and when I do find them, they're always full of barbs.

 

[Redbad]

Turn 0:
Nice trick with the arrow points

Turn 2:
Improvement schema:
I wouldn’t irrigate the grass tiles, but irrigate the banana too. Now working the irrigated tiles gives at least 2 extra food. Along with working the mined hills will give an excellent food city that can also produce a settler/worker very fast. After getting calendar the banana can get a plantation.

I propose a different placing of cities 2 and 3. It looses the fish but gains the gems and dyes. It also makes the cities more specialised.

I’ve mapped a possible road network in black. Not only connects it the projected cities and resources, it also leads up to Paris which will be handy too.

Kyoto
The worker can start irrigating the corn first, as it gives the most benefit. There is no need for connecting the corn yet as the projected road network also includes another corn. After the corn the floodplain (closest) and then the banana. Make sure when walking from the floodplain to the banana to do a turn on the road in between. It will be for free as floodplain and banana are 2 tiles apart.

I would suggest Kyoto building another worker after the first and then a setller. Research I would probably change from pottery to mysticism, animal husbandry, writing. We have little immediate need for pots and we do want to pasture the cow. Mysticism is cheap and needed to chop us an obelisk in our new cities for border expansion.

City 2
Gets an extra 3 food from the corn and an extra 2 food from the cow. This makes it possible to work the copper (-1), the gold (-2), the plains hill (-2) and the stone (-2). Thus giving us a supreme production site which also add a lot of resources to the empire.
This city has to give us the much needed protection from barbs so building a barracks and then axes.

City 3
Can work 2 gems and 2 riversided plantations. Along with some cottages will give an excellent commerce site. I can be founded even if Paris culture grows again. Of course razing or capturing Paris with axes/swords from hammer city in the near future looks sensible.

 

[Redbad]

who's next?