Gauntlet Suggestions

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Good idea, not sure it is possible without PA, maybe on a low level (warlord or something) where you can have a big power lead over the AI (this determines in part whether they will break free). Anyone want to test to see if it can be done first?

To get a Vassal in the first place will require a substantial Power lead over it, so I'd say the problem is getting Vassals much more so than retaining them.

Get a Hammer heavy city and put out a unit every turn. Use technically superior units, so one rarely lose even one. You're power will just keep going up. This is even possible on Diety, but it probably won't happen in the BC years.

I'd play English with both heavy Hammer and heavy Food tiles and beeline Nationalism after completing Rifling to draft as well as build Red Coats. With enough Food surplus, one could draft a Red Coat every turn or at least every other turn and quite possibly also build a Red Coat every turn or at least every other turn.

How fast units can be drafted or built depends greatly on game speed. It is quite possible, though hard, to build and draft a unit every turn at Quick speed, due both to the small number of hammers needed to build a unit and small Food surplus needed to increase by one the City's Population (which is simultaneously depleted by drafting).

However, the Research/unit movement ratio of Quick speed makes Domination very difficult due to unit obsolescence, but Normal or even Epic speed may allow a unit per turn to be made (built or drafted) from the Mid-game through to the end.

Actually, a unique unit based on a Musket might be better due to the number of Technologies required for Rifleman/Red Coats, but Red Coats would be more fun. Image Red Coats versus Muskets, Knights, Macemen, Catapults, War Elephants and even Horse Archers, Swordsmen and Axemen!

Best of all, with only one City ever, one should never have trouble paying for a huge military, though one's Research may suffer somewhat after completing Nationalism.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Rain]

If i recall - if you turn on no city razing then you can acquire additional cities in occ. There was some previous gauntlet we had where this was an issue.

 

[oyzar]

Not anymore... Cept AP wasn't actually fixed.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A few months ago, several Civ players made the point that they thought that HOF Domination (or Conquest) was "dominated" by Marathon Speed games. They all agreed that the "proper" Speed to Play was Normal Speed with an Ancient start. They proceeded to mention grand and long strategies involving early Cavalry and/or Riflemen. At the time, I simply refused to believe that Domination (or Conquest) with Normal Speed and an Ancient Start would require anything remotely advanced as Cavalry or Riflemen. They also insisted on Normal Barbarians.

Since then, I've always wanted to try to Win a Normal Speed Domination game as early as possible. So, a few weeks ago, I finally started a "Test" of my Theory. I started a Deity, Normal Speed, Tiny Pangaea, Ancient Start game with the earliest unit with the greatest Longevity and the goal of Domination. Julius and his Praetorians where the obvious choice. I selected four Opponents, both to have a World dense with Cities to capture as well as avoid the usual argument against Tiny games, "Its too easy to Dominate two Opponents, by quickly damaging both or by simply spamming Settlers into all vacant space, etc."

My only successful attempt (the first attempt failed) resulted in a 300 BC HOF Domination Win:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=15875

I expected to finish closer to 1000 BC, but the S shape of the Continent made that difficult. Also, my Diety level Domination experience is nearly exclusively at Marathon speed, so my relatively weak (in my opnion) finish had a lot to do with coping with Opponents who were significantly more advanced in Technology. Despite this, the most advanced unit I faced was Catapults and Praetorians can deal with them quite easily. Amazingly, the lowly Axeman was the biggest threat to my Praetorians.

I forgot to enable Barbarians, but I don't think they would have been much of a factor and certainly not after the capture of The Great Wall.

Deity, Normal Speed Domination, Ancient Start, Any Civ, Any Opponents, Any Small Map:

I'd like to propose a Deity, Normal Speed Domination, Ancient Start Gauntlet. Any Small Map would be ideal, so it isn't too small to be somewhat trivial and not too big to take forever or become impossible.

Deity, Normal Speed Domination, Ancient Start, Any Civ, Any Opponents, OCC, No Permanent Alliance, Any (Duel) Map:

A fun alternative would be the same thing with OCC and no Permanent Alliance. If it was done on the smallest possible Map, i.e. Great Plains Duel, I suspect that a single City could acquire enough Culture to reach Domination entirely by itself. The conflict could be partially via Culture Bombs or more likely via a dozen settled Great Artists and scores of World Wonders. More Enemy Cities might be destroyed by creeping Culture than by Military Stacks!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I like the idea for the normal speed domination. Perhaps one of the Gauntlet requirements could be to have max AI players on the map to make it more of a challenge. As you mentioned, dominating 2 people on Tinay (or even 4 on Small) isn't as challenging.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I like the idea for the normal speed domination. Perhaps one of the Gauntlet requirements could be to have max AI players on the map to make it more of a challenge. As you mentioned, dominating 2 people on Tiny (or even 4 on Small) isn't as challenging.

Thanks for your support! I like your suggestion of requiring the maximum number of Opponents for Tiny and even Small Maps. Some Players will choose the Maximum Number of Opponents to reduce the Land Domination Limit anyway. I wonder whether the Gauntlet HOF software can enforce a specific number of arbitrary Opponents without simply listing Specific Opponents by Leader or Empire Name?

I must say that Playing Julius on Normal speed is far different from Marathon in a Way that seemed to be more Fun. However, that could be the novelty of Normal Speed Domination, since the Tiny Map I played was only my first successful Deity Domination at Normal speed.

It definitely was more Fun researching though to Iron Working, since it took probably less than half as many turns to get there at Normal speed versus Marathon speed. It was even more Fun hacking and slashing (well primarily slashing with respect to Praetorians; Axemen can do the hacking ) through most Cities of all four Opponents.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[cabert]

why so small?

make it standard for a real challenge

 

[Denniz]

I wonder whether the Gauntlet HOF software can enforce a specific number of arbitrary Opponents without simply listing Specific Opponents by Leader or Empire Name?

Sorry, that capability isn't there. It could be added but I have a lot of stuff on my plate right now.

Honor System, maybe? I don't imagine that there are too many masochistsplayers out there that would want to compete.

 

[Misotu]

I think the honour system would be fine - after all, anyone who does well will be in the limelight as far as something so easy to review as number of opponents! And also max opponents has benefits for domination, (if you're any good at it which, personally, I'm not) as has been pointed out.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

why so small?

make it standard for a real challenge

My feasibility "test" game was on a Tiny Map with 4 Opponents, so I'd be willing to say that a Small Map should also be possible with 7 Opponents. However, I wouldn't want to extrapolate to a Standard Map with 10 Opponents. That would be just too much of a stretch.

I'm suggesting a Tiny or Small Maps, since it would be the first time a Deity, Normal speed Domination Gauntlet was organized. We don't want to make it too difficult to be nearly impossible or at least perceived to be nearly impossible to anyone who might otherwise be interested in competing.

Also, recall the last time a Deity Domination Gauntlet was offered on a Standard Map. There were only two finishers and it was Marathon speed which should be easier in some ways than Normal speed.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'm sure I'd try a praet rush on deity after all the AP-cheese games I have been having this update

Normal speed is my favourite but I think a small map would be best, and not require the max number of civs.

I think the current minor has put an end to deity religious majors anyway unless continents are specified

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I think the honour system would be fine - after all, anyone who does well will be in the limelight as far as something so easy to review as number of opponents! And also max opponents has benefits for domination, (if you're any good at it which, personally, I'm not) as has been pointed out.

Actually, it may be Fun to simply permit Any Number of Opponents allowed by the HOF rules. It would be interesting to see whether Players using the Minimum Number of Opponents (4 on a Small Map) can finish quicker than those using more Opponents (5 or 6) up to the Maximum (7 on a Small Map). I suspect that at Normal speed it may be easier to Win Domination earlier against fewer Opponents despite a higher Land Domination limit. A Gauntlet may be the ideal Venue to test such Theories and develop related Strategies.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

Interesting idea. We should be able to do something like this maybe in a couple of updates. I was thinking maxing opponents would be easier, s o interesting to see others who think minimum opponents might be easier.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Interesting idea. We should be able to do something like this maybe in a couple of updates. I was thinking maxing opponents would be easier, s o interesting to see others who think minimum opponents might be easier.

Thanks. Such a Normal speed Domination Gauntlet may generate more interest in the HOF and its Gauntlets from Civ4 players that usually play Normal speed games with Barbarians.

Although I prefer No Barbarians, I think its important to require Barbarians for such a Gauntlet, because the Civ4 players that prefer to play Normal speed Domination always seem to have Barbarians selected and also have strong objections to the No Barbarian option.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I would leave the barbarian setting as an option. There are benefits and drawbacks to both. With no barbarians you can grow early and not worry about defense. With barbarians on you can get exp for your units without DOW. Leave that decision up to the player.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Although I prefer No Barbarians, I think its important to require Barbarians for such a Gauntlet, because the Civ4 players that prefer to play Normal speed Domination always seem to have Barbarians selected and also have strong objections to the No Barbarian option.

Mesix's comment below clued me into realizing that my statement above was too strong. Obviously, not all Civ4 players that prefer to play Normal speed Domination are necessarily going to insist that Barbarians must be selected.

I would leave the barbarian setting as an option. There are benefits and drawbacks to both. With no barbarians you can grow early and not worry about defense. With barbarians on you can get exp for your units without DOW. Leave that decision up to the player.

If we also want maximum participation from current HOF players we must leave the Barbarians selection open (No Barbarians, Barbarians or Raging Barbarians may be selected as desired by the Player).

Also, considering that this would be Normal speed Deity Domination, it may even become nearly impossible to Win with Barbarians being forced on. At least from the perspective of many HOF Players.

So, I retract my suggestion that the Normal speed Deity Domination Gauntlet have a mandatory Barbarian selection.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[oyzar]

Playing with praets is pretty far removed from your standard deity game. Pick the opponents, force barbs on, pick the civ or leader(play something like russia) then go for fastest no-dom no-ap no-conq victory. That could be interesting... Ofc if non-regular hofers don't get atracted, the regular hofers might just find it too "hard".

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Playing with praets is pretty far removed from your standard deity game. Pick the opponents, force barbs on, pick the civ or leader(play something like russia) then go for fastest no-dom no-ap no-conq victory. That could be interesting... Ofc if non-regular hofers don't get atracted, the regular hofers might just find it too "hard".

You have to be careful or people who work the settings can win even if it looks "hard".

For example, you said nothing about permanent alliances just now, and yet those can easily make a diplo-savvy player win games he has no business even competing in otherwise .

It's probably pretty easy to win space on deity if you just spam out 5 games or so and latch onto the tech leader for a 1700's AD culture or early 1800's space. If the game is otherwise "too hard" that garbage might even place .

 

[Mesix]

I think a Deity level UN Victory would make an interesting Gauntlet. Stipulate no Vassals and no PA to make it even more interesting.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Playing with praets is pretty far removed from your standard deity game. Pick the opponents, force barbs on, pick the civ or leader(play something like russia) then go for fastest no-dom no-ap no-conq victory. That could be interesting... Ofc if non-regular hofers don't get atracted, the regular hofers might just find it too "hard".

The problem with forcing Barbarians on is nearly all HOF players will build The Great Wall and having Barbarians on or even Raging Barbarians on becomes a trivial nuisance.

The problem with not picking Opponents is, one will get a group of Opponents that is easier to beat just by pure chance eventually. I suppose the Gauntlet may have to define a worst possible set of Opponents that everyone must complete against.

Block every means of winning an "Earlier than Normal" Victory in a Gauntlet by adding a dozen or more restrictions, and the more experienced HOF players will find another shortcut to Early Victory that you missed.

It may be harder than you think to define a Deity Gauntlet that no HOF player can complete. Regardless of speed, regardless of Victory Condition and Options Restrictions, an experienced HOF player will develop a sound strategy and Win, likely far earlier than anyone expected.

Even if you make the restrictions that TheMeInTeam suggested above (No Permanent Alliance and No Vassals), your suggestion will become a race for UN Diplomatic Victory. Just check the main HOF Deity Table. After Conquest, Domination and Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, the UN Diplomatic Victory is the next easiest. Note that the very early Dates for the Cultural Victory used the Incan Empire, which is (generally) prohibited by HOF Gauntlet rules. (The Incan Empire makes it too easy to win at Deity level; In my opinion, it should be banned from all HOF play and not just Gauntlets and Elite Quattromasters.)

Any multiple Victory Condition Gauntlet would be pointless, because one of them will always be significantly more easy to complete than all the others. Might as well just make the easiest Victory Condition the only one.

Sun Tzu Wu