General A New Dawn discussion

[Rezca]

I think it would make sense if war declaration would work a bit similar to peace treaties. If you declared war, you cannot undo it for a few turns (4 turns on standard speed?). Currently the only factor is the AI's willingness to negotiate, but a declaration should have real consequences. Sure, it's okay to let the AI back out a war quickly, just not immediately.

Maybe it can be based on relations as well. If they were bribed into a war or asked to help a friend. "Can you spare us this" is the same as the AI coming to you for help in their wars, but paying someone to is more a bribe than a plea for help.
Similarly, if they were asked into a war, they might try and negotiate peace sooner than later if they were just Cautious with the leader that asked them, and might stick around longer if they hated the AI that they went to war with.

They'd have more incentive to help in a war if they either or both liked the leader that asked them, and disliked the leader they went to war with. I'd imagine power ratings would have an influence with how quickly they make peace, but that's already implemented right?


As for the notes above, I don't know how practical all that'd be to implement - or if it'd even be worth doing so. They're just thoughts ^^

 

[Rezca]

I just found my new favourite leader and civilization!

The Chinese, with Qin Shu Huang PRO/IND, and dem Chu-Ko-Nus be strong. Pavilion is nice too.

The collateral damage they got is a lovely thing indeed

 

[philipschall]

This mod is fantastic. I've been playing it since January on my laptop and it runs even GEM perfect. The balance is spectacular, the AI is actually competent (to a degree, there's only so much a person can do), and it feels like a whole, better CIV4 experience.

I've been playing off the SVN, and I was wondering what still needs to be done before the mod is considered "1.0" or "done"?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, there are things to fix, some options and details to improve and I'd really like to make it fully playable in multiplayer too. There's a list of things we want to do on the bugtracker

 

[gay_Aleks]

The collateral damage they got is a lovely thing indeed

The Persians found out the hard way. Pro-tip, don't attack a 160% defence city with 10 cats and 30 swordsmen...and defended by 5 Chu-Ko-Nus.

It sure backfired right into his face.

Right now, Great China is colonising Australia because why the hell not. (this being on an Earth2 map).

 

[Rezca]

The Persians found out the hard way. Pro-tip, don't attack a 160% defence city with 10 cats and 30 swordsmen...and defended by 5 Chu-Ko-Nus.

It sure backfired right into his face.

Right now, Great China is colonising Australia because why the hell not. (this being on an Earth2 map).

Australia was very easy for people to get to and colonize on that map. When I was playing I went with Japan, wiped out China and made friends with Siam, and as I expanded westward he went south, colonizing the small islands along the way and eventually Australia in a very short manner. Egypt and Zulu landed some colonies on the continent's shores as well just as my armies reached their empires years and years later

 

[gay_Aleks]

That's true. Earth3 is different as it spawns a civ in Australia but unfortunately almost 99% of the times I spawn there so I don't play it often.

Might be because I play as Russia, but who knows.

 

[Me_Myself]

Thank you modders for this beautiful mode!!!

There is just one thing I want to be added to mode: customisation of rebellions.

I miss an old version when revolutions were a bane of rulers and keeping people content was vital. AIs were always fighting rebellions and I was overpowered by rebels many times ^^ Now it's too easy for me.

I tried to edit values in text files regarding revolutions but it didn't work. I'm not sure if many people think like me, but I really loved the depth revolutions gave the game - population being a subject instead of object, cities and whole parts of the realm having their own will and creating their own civ if they want to live their own way.

 

[Rezca]

Only took a little over half the game to realize this but...

I had a Tortesta script generate a map... With no rivers at all. None, in the entire world! No one's getting Oil Products until the Biofuel tech it seems
Or the Japanese and their Shale Plants...


No Fossils generated either, but I placed a few manually at the game start. Why I didn't notice the complete lack of Rivers then is beyond me

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Only took a little over half the game to realize this but...

I had a Tortesta script generate a map... With no rivers at all. None, in the entire world! No one's getting Oil Products until the Biofuel tech it seems [emoji38]
Or the Japanese and their Shale Plants...


No Fossils generated either, but I placed a few manually at the game start. Why I didn't notice the complete lack of Rivers then is beyond me

It happened to me too

 

[Slarki]

When you install the mod for the first time, you should have set some recommended settings for new players. It looks like the settings in the custom game are just random.
Maybe we could also pin a thread with tips like:
-build close to your capital in the early game
-maximum number of wonders per cultural influence
-revolutions are intertwined with civics
-the starting difficulty level for civ veterans
-the most balanced settings in general

changes to the core game play could be added to that. So everything which isn't self explanatory (like hovering over a button to get it explained to you) should be in it.

 

[Rezca]

Does the Patrol line of promotions, Loyalty promotion, and Pharaoh's Propoganda promotion help with Revolutions any?

They all say "Reduce chances of revolt in city by x%", but does that include Revolution revolts or is it just referring to like, from low culture / massive unhappiness / spies? I mean, will sticking a large number of units with those promotions help improve the stability of a city that's suffering unrest?

 

[dbkblk]

@Rezca & 45°: I think all the mapscripts should be reviewed, especially when using another language (try with Italian for example). The change in the char handling might have caused issues with scripts using names instead of ID (or something like that) to make references to objects. The results is that the script cannot locate or generate objects with non-ASCII char names so it cannot set them on the map.

@slarki: Yeah, you're right, we should gathers more tips. The point is, when gameplay is changed, it's sometimes hard to make the documentation following the changes.

 

[Slarki]

@Rezca & 45°: I think all the mapscripts should be reviewed, especially when using another language (try with Italian for example). The change in the char handling might have caused issues with scripts using names instead of ID (or something like that) to make references to objects. The results is that the script cannot locate or generate objects with non-ASCII char names so it cannot set them on the map.

@slarki: Yeah, you're right, we should gathers more tips. The point is, when gameplay is changed, it's sometimes hard to make the documentation following the changes.

How about a developer here opens a thread and if anyone notices any change to the core gameplay compared to the vanilla which isn't explained by a button or text box, he could post it. The recommended settings in the other hand can be just put in with the next update to AND

 

[Rezca]

I forgot I even had this quest...


Owner's been waiting 900 years for me to expand his now-obsolete guild

 

[Rezca]

Right so I've brought this up before but, it's come up once again in my game.


It's been said many times that the Revolutions code is a bit 'messy' and so folks are reluctant to go poking it, but this has been on my mind for a while now. Every now and then when you've got multiple religions in your empire, eventually a city will start asking you to change from a "strict" state-sponsored civic like State Church or Intolerant, into a different one so they can "practice and spread" one other than yours.

Late in the game however, the civic they want me to change to is almost invariably Atheist - which disables the practice and spread of religion throughout your empire (And seemingly doesn't have any negatives attached to it, beyond a relatively minor unhappiness penalty for having multiple religions in a city - a penalty that is very easy to overcome as well). Shouldn't this be like, Secular or something instead? Since Atheist is doing pretty much the same thing that State Church and the others are doing: Preventing them from practicing and spreading their religion

I'd think it should be removed from the civics they'd ask you to change into, since it never really made any sense to me. I figure it might be the empire-wide Stability bonuses it gives, but the dialogue text kind of seems like Secular would fit better than this one.

 

[<Nexus>]

Right so I've brought this up before but, it's come up once again in my game.


It's been said many times that the Revolutions code is a bit 'messy' and so folks are reluctant to go poking it, but this has been on my mind for a while now. Every now and then when you've got multiple religions in your empire, eventually a city will start asking you to change from a "strict" state-sponsored civic like State Church or Intolerant, into a different one so they can "practice and spread" one other than yours.

Late in the game however, the civic they want me to change to is almost invariably Atheist - which disables the practice and spread of religion throughout your empire (And seemingly doesn't have any negatives attached to it, beyond a relatively minor unhappiness penalty for having multiple religions in a city - a penalty that is very easy to overcome as well). Shouldn't this be like, Secular or something instead? Since Atheist is doing pretty much the same thing that State Church and the others are doing: Preventing them from practicing and spreading their religion

I'd think it should be removed from the civics they'd ask you to change into, since it never really made any sense to me. I figure it might be the empire-wide Stability bonuses it gives, but the dialogue text kind of seems like Secular would fit better than this one.

I think Atheist civic should work in an entirely different way: We should have a new (and unique) religion, Atheism that would have no founding tech, no temples, nor missionaries. It would be available by switching to Atheist civic. Once you switch to Atheist civic, your state religion is set to Atheism (and you cannot change it to any other) spreading from your capital to other cities. Atheism could spread to foreign cities as well and when it is spread enough the AI could consider a change.

 

[Vokarya]

Right so I've brought this up before but, it's come up once again in my game.


It's been said many times that the Revolutions code is a bit 'messy' and so folks are reluctant to go poking it, but this has been on my mind for a while now. Every now and then when you've got multiple religions in your empire, eventually a city will start asking you to change from a "strict" state-sponsored civic like State Church or Intolerant, into a different one so they can "practice and spread" one other than yours.

Late in the game however, the civic they want me to change to is almost invariably Atheist - which disables the practice and spread of religion throughout your empire (And seemingly doesn't have any negatives attached to it, beyond a relatively minor unhappiness penalty for having multiple religions in a city - a penalty that is very easy to overcome as well). Shouldn't this be like, Secular or something instead? Since Atheist is doing pretty much the same thing that State Church and the others are doing: Preventing them from practicing and spreading their religion

I'd think it should be removed from the civics they'd ask you to change into, since it never really made any sense to me. I figure it might be the empire-wide Stability bonuses it gives, but the dialogue text kind of seems like Secular would fit better than this one.

I think what's actually going on is that Atheist is given a Religious Freedom value that is too high. I tried to look at the Revolution Python code and found this:

if( bPeaceful ) :
	# Check if there are civics they would like changed
	newRelCivic = None

	[level,optionType] = RevUtils.getReligiousFreedom( iPlayer )
	[newLevel,newRelCivic] = RevUtils.getBestReligiousFreedom( iPlayer, optionType )

	if( not newRelCivic == None and newLevel > level ) :
		if( level < -5 or (newLevel > 5 and level < 0) ) :
			if( self.LOG_DEBUG ) : CvUtil.pyPrint("  Revolt - Asking for change from %s to %s"%(gc.getCivicInfo(pPlayer.getCivics(optionType)).getDescription(),gc.getCivicInfo(newRelCivic).getDescription()))

This is only part of the code, but it's looking for civics that have higher religious freedom. Secular has a Religious Freedom of 8, while Atheist has a 10. Atheist should be a lot lower, since it doesn't allow religion to spread. It combines No State Religion with No Non-State Religion Spread. Maybe we should give Atheist a negative religious freedom number, to represent its hostility towards all religions. The more repressive civics do have negative numbers: Divine Cult is -3; State Church is -5; Intolerant is -9. (Also, I'm not sure if State Church should be worse than Divine Cult.) That would fix it without having to make anything new.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I think what's actually going on is that Atheist is given a Religious Freedom value that is too high. I tried to look at the Revolution Python code and found this:

if( bPeaceful ) :
# Check if there are civics they would like changed
newRelCivic = None

[level,optionType] = RevUtils.getReligiousFreedom( iPlayer )
[newLevel,newRelCivic] = RevUtils.getBestReligiousFreedom( iPlayer, optionType )

if( not newRelCivic == None and newLevel > level ) :
if( level < -5 or (newLevel > 5 and level < 0) ) :
if( self.LOG_DEBUG ) : CvUtil.pyPrint("  Revolt - Asking for change from %s to %s"%(gc.getCivicInfo(pPlayer.getCivics(optionType)).getDescription(),gc.getCivicInfo(newRelCivic).getDescription()))

This is only part of the code, but it's looking for civics that have higher religious freedom. Secular has a Religious Freedom of 8, while Atheist has a 10. Atheist should be a lot lower, since it doesn't allow religion to spread. It combines No State Religion with No Non-State Religion Spread. Maybe we should give Atheist a negative religious freedom number, to represent its hostility towards all religions. The more repressive civics do have negative numbers: Divine Cult is -3; State Church is -5; Intolerant is -9. (Also, I'm not sure if State Church should be worse than Divine Cult.) That would fix it without having to make anything new.

I'll release an update probably this weekend so I can add this change. Shall we make State Church equal to Divine Cult? Should Atheist be lower than anything else, like -10. Let me know if you want me to add it or if you prefer to push it with your next release.

 

[Vokarya]

I'll release an update probably this weekend so I can add this change. Shall we make State Church equal to Divine Cult? Should Atheist be lower than anything else, like -10. Let me know if you want me to add it or if you prefer to push it with your next release.

Go ahead and add it if you're planning a release. I would flip State Church and Divine Cult (make DC -5 and State Church -3, as State Church does allow non-state religions to spread), kick Atheist down to -7 (not quite as bad as Intolerant, as it doesn't allow inquisitions; I believe there have been debates in the past over whether or not it should), and move Personality Cult down to 0 (so that isn't as good as Secular; I admit I copied the value directly from Secular, but now I think it needs to be brought down as well).