General A New Dawn discussion

In modern era naval units had comparable movement with air units, even more.At least in v834.
Here is start of the thread.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13490169#post13490169

I just remembered there was another problem in old revision:After some time AI would stop building in most cities, I hope that was solved?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13508010#post13508010

I frankly don't remember if we have cut down movements. But there's a flaw in your perception: we're not only talking about speed but about range; while it's true that even an early plane was faster than a ship, its range is always more limited. There's a BUG option to set the rebase range. It only becomes unlimited once you reach supersonic flight.
Also I'm not aware of any current bug where AI isn't building anymore.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13849097 said:
I frankly don't remember if we have cut down movements. But there's a flaw in your perception: we're not only talking about speed but about range; while it's true that even an early plane was faster than a ship, its range is always more limited. There's a BUG option to set the rebase range. It only becomes unlimited once you reach supersonic flight.
Also I'm not aware of any current bug where AI isn't building anymore.

We should talk about speed/range combo for gameplay balance.If ships have 16 or 17 movement(modern era, in transhuman it's even more) this is serious issue, at least for me.Point is with such a huge movement invasion fleets could move from continent to continent(and more) without being attacked from air, which is nonsense.

In thread both Afforess and Vokarya agreed it is very excessive.

EDIT:
I checked new version, and naval movement haven't been changed.It is still way too big.
 
834 was a while ago, didn't we cut naval movement bonuses down since then? (Like removing the Meteorolgy line and such, since there were a lot of movement boosting techs)

Plus the AI love using the Movement+ promotions on their ships. I don't see them ever going for Drill, Combat, etc until they've maxed out Movement first.
 
We should talk about speed/range combo for gameplay balance.If ships have 16 or 17 movement(modern era, in transhuman it's even more) this is serious issue, at least for me.Point is with such a huge movement invasion fleets could move from continent to continent(and more) without being attacked from air, which is nonsense.

I agree.I think that ship movement is too much when considering that even an intercontinental invasion force can easily invade enemy waters.
How about implementing a movement penalty for water units when entering enemy waters?A penalty similar to the one that exists for early water units when entering ocean tiles.
 
834 was a while ago, didn't we cut naval movement bonuses down since then? (Like removing the Meteorolgy line and such, since there were a lot of movement boosting techs)

Plus the AI love using the Movement+ promotions on their ships. I don't see them ever going for Drill, Combat, etc until they've maxed out Movement first.

I used save from v834 in last AND version(973) and movement is same.Such a huge movement is for my ships, and I don't choose movement promotions.Plus I wasn't the first one to sail around the world, so I don't have bonus.
There is possibility that bonuses were removed, but wouldn't that affect my game?
From what I recall Naval academy was to be moved to national wonder, so it would reduce movement by -1 for other cities.
That still leaves us with too much movement.

Does anyone have recent save from modern time, so we could check it out?
 
I used save from v834 in last AND version(973) and movement is same.Such a huge movement is for my ships, and I don't choose movement promotions.Plus I wasn't the first one to sail around the world, so I don't have bonus.
There is possibility that bonuses were removed, but wouldn't that affect my game?
From what I recall Naval academy was to be moved to national wonder, so it would reduce movement by -1 for other cities.
That still leaves us with too much movement.

Does anyone have recent save from modern time, so we could check it out?
Which mapsize are you using?
 
I used save from v834 in last AND version(973) and movement is same.Such a huge movement is for my ships, and I don't choose movement promotions.Plus I wasn't the first one to sail around the world, so I don't have bonus.
There is possibility that bonuses were removed, but wouldn't that affect my game?
From what I recall Naval academy was to be moved to national wonder, so it would reduce movement by -1 for other cities.
That still leaves us with too much movement.

Does anyone have recent save from modern time, so we could check it out?

Using WB I gave a clasical civ some modern boats, and they had mostly 11 moves. When I gave said civ all techs up to all modern techs they got 15 moves. So they do indeed have quite a lot. This is on standard world size, RoM_Earth2 map script.
 
There should be no need to scale anything by mapsize, because the mapsize is not a scale factor, it's an actual size.

The trouble is how speed and oversea mobility run into each other in the game with turn-based play. I would go so far as to say that a game with 1 movement stat cannot have balanced sea warfare period.

You need to take a page from the air combat system to have ships work. Early on, those techs increase movement to facilitate exploring the oceans and indicate ships that can rebase and float wherever they want. But everything after 6 movement overwhelms the positional grid system itself because of turns.
You have some tools because you have some freedoms to treat later naval developments different from earlier ones. The bonus to oversea movement can be understated because it just doesn't impact exploration anymore, but instead just relocation. And the stat, in that sense, should grow sublinearly. The extremes of movement overwhelm the sight radii of units, but movement can be treated as an enhancement to sight radius, with scouting and such - you have enough mobility to look around and still travel. And movement vs. sight radius is an appropriate arms race that will keep things interesting.

Lastly, though this would be some ambitious reprogramming, ships need to have the ability to control their surroundings from other ships, that's like... literally what they do, but again the turns are interfering. It has to be ships that do this, not owned territory. Some simple methods are ill-advised: Implementing zone of control is especially inappropriate for ships because of size and remoteness. And you can't have an interception mission, that completely warps sea's difference from aircraft. Ships are about being moving in the right place at the right time, creating passages and lanes. So ships should have a patrol option, and what it should do is allow the unit to literally occupy more than one tile. By expending its great surplus of moves to do that, it can cover an area by indicating that it is freely and fastly patrolling great spans of the water during the time period represented by the turn (specifically, the other guy's turn where he sails his guys up through your stuff at 10 tiles a time). This creates an appropriate defense to mobility paid for with mobility, so the arms race exists, but fair for the swapping of turns.

In the same line, just as mobility becomes this bonus action of patrolling at the extreme upper end, the bonus sight, after a few quick gimmes in the early modern period, should be considered a mission as well - that is, not specifically granted by anything different from using movement (to look on your turn) or the patrol (to enhance sight on defense, at least spotting units you can't engage).

edit: You could also try penalizing ships by making them commit their whole turn's mission in one action. This in itself will make naval power as such build on itself with diminishing returns. (This works with keeping sight low.) Ships will slow down overall and 16 moves won't be felt as much in any but the extreme case of advantage. AFAIK this completely deposes the interface for Civ's units, though.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13850275 said:
Which mapsize are you using?

Huge size map.
Actually, ships by default don't have too much movement points, but problem was created with various bonuses, which gave additional 5 to 7 movement points.Naval academy was maybe removed later, but I am not sure.
 
I was wondering is it possible to see what kind of automatic orders unit have?Like patrol, attack or somehing else.
 
I tried that last time (And having to reset all those settings was so annoying...) but it ended up coming back again later mid-game :(

Rezca, are you by chance using the cheatcode? If so, try turning it off and let me know how it goes, please.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13850799 said:
Rezca, are you by chance using the cheatcode? If so, try turning it off and let me know how it goes, please.

The Chipotle cheatcode? It was on most of the time, right now it says '0', checking the current newly produced ini file. Haven't had a go with it just yet in-game but I think this was how it was when I was playing last time.


*EDIT* Debug Mode is causing it. Switch it on - chipotle enabled or not - and the tabs disappear. I switch it back off, they come back. Don't even need to reload the game.
 
You could have a modern era tech or building give a bonus of +1 movement cost to any enemy in water tiles that a civ owns, effectively cutting down an enemy fleets movement by half when they reach your territory.

And I like the idea Horseshoe_Hermi posted about giving ships effectively an Area of Denial/scouting action at the cost of mobility. It would add a unique strategic layer to naval warfare.
 
Let's keep it simple. If the rest of the team agrees, I think I can increase movement cost in enemy waters. Or I can use an idea from another mod, where transports end their turn once they disembark units, so you can't disembark and run away.
 
How about simply removing the "+1 movement to ships" from some techs?

Increasing movement cost in enemy waters does not make sense to me.
 
How about simply removing the "+1 movement to ships" from some techs?

Increasing movement cost in enemy waters does not make sense to me.

The problem is, the current movement speed is fine for traveling across naked ocean, it's when it gets into enemy territory and starts doing damage that the massive movement speed is a problem. On huge maps and larger, the larger movement speed is really nice to have, otherwise it simply take way too much time just for your ships to just reach your enemy when it should be much faster. On smaller maps the movement speed is way too high and allows things like transports to sail across the "ocean", unload, and come back in the same turn.

Adding a +1 movement cost to units in enemy territory at some point or with some building or tech is a nice simple middle ground. It allows ships to sail quickly across the very large international ocean in larger while simultaneously slowing them down when they get into range to start doing damage by entering your territory. On smaller maps, more of the ocean is claimed, thus slowing down ships to a more manageable level by default.
 
The problem is, the current movement speed is fine for traveling across naked ocean, it's when it gets into enemy territory and starts doing damage that the massive movement speed is a problem. On huge maps and larger, the larger movement speed is really nice to have, otherwise it simply take way too much time just for your ships to just reach your enemy when it should be much faster. On smaller maps the movement speed is way too high and allows things like transports to sail across the "ocean", unload, and come back in the same turn.

Adding a +1 movement cost to units in enemy territory at some point or with some building or tech is a nice simple middle ground. It allows ships to sail quickly across the very large international ocean in larger while simultaneously slowing them down when they get into range to start doing damage by entering your territory. On smaller maps, more of the ocean is claimed, thus slowing down ships to a more manageable level by default.

But what if your flotilla is filling up neutral waters, or is aggressively positioned? You still have 16 moves blitzing past and through your array even though you're looking.

You need to turn that movement into sight or zoning on defense. It's already there, just vanishing in these extremes solely because of turns. You want simple, make those last 9 bonuses add up only to 3 movement in their combination.
 
Top Bottom