General help with obscure english expressions, thread :)

[Kyriakos]

Thought of asking about some phrase i read in Poe, but i am sure the thread can be more useful if others can post too for other words, i just might also use it on occasion

Anyway, the phrase is in a short story by Poe:

"[...]we are a wonderful people, and live in a wonderful age. Parachutes and rail-roads-mantraps and spring-guns! Our steam-boats are upon every sea, and the Nassau balloon packet is about to run regular trips (fare either way only twenty pounds sterling) between London and Timbuctoo. [...]"

I want to ask what the term "packet" means there. I know that the Nassau balloon did exist, and was about a lot smaller trips (i also know that Poe wrote a hoax article on a balloon of this kind), but does "packet" mean something about the type of traveling service? Or is it about how the balloon(s) are bound/set up?

 

[Birdjaguar]

As I recall, "packet" in that sense was a packaged fare, typically on a boat, that offered regular service to take a person from A to B. In your case, boat has been replaced with balloon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_boat

 

[Lexicus]

Birdjaguar is correct. I admit I wouldn't have known this one and am fascinated by the idea of a balloon-borne mail service.

 

[Hrothbern]

Yes
Communication became evermore important in the colonial empires. Primarily correspondence with ever shorter and more reliable delivery times.
The thrill of, in Poe's words, that wonderfull age was everywhere, also inspiring Jules Verne with his "in 80 days around the world" using mailboats (in effect the same as packet boats, but now more driven by public business mail than governmental or East Indian Company orders and reports.
Special ships were build for speed. And because mail has no weight, there was room for some passengers at low luxury accomodations.
The mail boats were also a prime driver to develop seaworthy steamboats, that were not dependent on wind. This greatly increased passenger room, because less sailors were needed.

 

[Hrothbern]

Birdjaguar is correct. I admit I wouldn't have known this one and am fascinated by the idea of a balloon-borne mail service.

In 1870 the balloon was used for mail in and out Paris (when under siege). You can see under the post stamp, diagonal: "Par Ballon Monte"

Here another letter from 1871:

 

[Kyriakos]

As I recall, "packet" in that sense was a packaged fare, typically on a boat, that offered regular service to take a person from A to B. In your case, boat has been replaced with balloon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_boat

Awesome! Thank you so much! ^_^

 

[Kyriakos]

As I recall, "packet" in that sense was a packaged fare, typically on a boat, that offered regular service to take a person from A to B. In your case, boat has been replaced with balloon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_boat

So, the "packet" term means that the services are of many types? (ie mail, passenger etc), or that it goes between just two set locations (and not more)? (ie as a sort of more specialized express). Asking cause ideally i would like to reflect it in my translation
Cause currently i left it ambiguous, going by 'regular service between a and b' or similar.

Not that i see a balloon having intermediate stops, tbh Btw, is the Nassau a type of balloon, or just one balloon? (i suppose it should be meant as a type, cause the original would be doing some other trips, if any; i know of the wiki article but the story may be portraying some hyperbole anyway, and it is 'anticipated' to happen anyway).

 

[Hrothbern]

So, the "packet" term means that the services are of many types? (ie mail, passenger etc), or that it goes between just two set locations (and not more)? (ie as a sort of more specialized express). Asking cause ideally i would like to reflect it in my translation
Cause currently i left it ambiguous, going by 'regular service between a and b' or similar.

Not that i see a balloon having intermediate stops, tbh Btw, is the Nassau a type of balloon, or just one balloon? (i suppose it should be meant as a type, cause the original would be doing some other trips, if any; i know of the wiki article but the story may be portraying some hyperbole anyway, and it is 'anticipated' to happen anyway).

the real life balloon flew to a Nassau residence in Weiburg, Germany making world record distance in 1836 by the famous British ballonist Charles Green
not Poe's one in 1837

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Green_(balloonist)

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes, but i am asking if there were more such balloons at the time, cause Poe makes up the term 'Nassau balloon (packet)', and it is not clear if he would mean there were more such balloons around OR if the specific one balloon would be about to do the trip he speaks about. The imaginary trip is between London and some colonial capital -Timbuktu-, so i have to infer that this isn't to be done by some one and only balloon, but a type after that prototype(?)
It matters re the translation, cause in the former case i will write 'balloon of Nassau type' while in the latter 'the balloon of Nassau'.
If there is no info i will just leave it ambiguous. Afterall, the 'Nassau balloon' is a balloon of Nassau* (balloon) type

*Just why it is called that can be in some footnote.

 

[Lexicus]

Yes, but i am asking if there were more such balloons at the time, cause Poe makes up the term 'Nassau balloon (packet)', and it is not clear if he would mean there were more such balloons around OR if the specific one balloon would be about to do the trip he speaks about. The imaginary trip is between London and some colonial capital -Timbuktu-, so i have to infer that this isn't to be done by some one and only balloon, but a type after that prototype(?)
It matters re the translation, cause in the former case i will write 'balloon of Nassau type' while in the latter 'the balloon of Nassau'.
If there is no info i will just leave it ambiguous. Afterall, the 'Nassau balloon' is a balloon of Nassau (balloon) type

It's not the Nassau balloon (packet), It's the (Nassau balloon) packet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_trade

"Packet" can mean a small parcel but, originally meant a parcel of important correspondence or valuable items, for urgent delivery.[3] The French-language term "paquebot" derives from the English term "packet boat," but means a large ocean liner.

This sense became extended to mean any regularly scheduled ship, carrying passengers, as in packet trade. The word "packet" is frequently modified by the destination, e.g. Sydney packet, or by motive force, e.g. "steam packet".

"Packet" here would mean any regularly scheduled mail line. Kind of like when you say "I'm going to take the train" you're just talking about using a train line with regularly scheduled train trips, not any specific individual train. Does that make sense?

 

[Kyriakos]

It's not the Nassau balloon (packet), It's the (Nassau balloon) packet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_trade

"Packet" here would mean any regularly scheduled mail line. Kind of like when you say "take the train" you're just talking about using a train line with regularly scheduled train trips, not any specific train. Does that make sense?

Yes. Although i am not sure if there is a greek term for it (one which isn't jargon anyway). I suggested something analogous to 'express' for trains. Not that it has to be so specific a translation. Maybe there is a single term for a traveling service, dedicated, between only two places, in greek. Currently i left it as more general/ambiguous/overgroup of what is meant...

Also, you (and all others here) keep stressing the mail service (albeit with the note that it altered to allow for more passengers, in ships), but ideally i would like to not use a periphrasis for a single english term; let alone that if i use something meaning 'general travel(moving) service' it may be a bit non-needed in how pronounced it is, and i am not even sure if the supposed Nassau balloon packet would include (non-pilot) passengers regularly (?). So at the moment i left it (again...) more ambiguous/all-inclusive and vague, as a travel/moving dedicated service.

 

[Hrothbern]

As I understand it
The balloon of Poe has the name Victoria
The balloon is the same as the real life balloon that flew from UK to Weiburg, to the Nassau family residence (the Oranges)
Then the idea discussed is:let's add a propellor system to a balloon build like the balloon that flew to Nassau

So I think that leaves us with: a balloon of the Nassau type, with added propellor, named Victoria.

I wonder BTW whether the coincidence that the well known island Nassau, close to Florida/US, inspired Poe to think up the idea when reading that the real life arrival was in the unknown German Nassau.

 

[Lexicus]

Currently i left it as more general/ambiguous/overgroup of what is meant...

I think that would probably be the right move. The key bit is from the part I quoted from wikipedia (edited unfortunately after you already replied):

This sense became extended to mean any regularly scheduled ship, carrying passengers, as in packet trade. The word "packet" is frequently modified by the destination, e.g. Sydney packet, or by motive force, e.g. "steam packet".

 

[Kyriakos]

As I understand it
The balloon of Poe has the name Victoria
The balloon is the same as the real life balloon that flew from UK to Weiburg, to the Nassau family residence (the Oranges)
Then the idea discussed is:let's add a propellor system to a balloon build like the balloon that flew to Nassau

So I think that leaves us with: a balloon of the Nassau type, with added propellor, named Victoria.

I wonder BTW whether the coincidence that the well known island Nassau, close to Florida/US, inspired Poe to think up the idea when reading that the real life arrival was in the unknown German Nassau.

Thanks! This may be important, although the story i am translating is not the one with the balloon hoax I am translating "The man that was used up", and the balloon isn't (otherwise) named there, other than in the passage in the OP

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/poe/used_up.html

 

[Kyriakos]

By the way (from the same passage in the OP), a "rail-road-mantrap" is, i suppose, a small confined space with two doors, as in those that banks use for entry/exit? Basically a safety measure, and a small room? (i suppose it is the same that modern trains use in-between wagons?).

"spring gun" seems to be an early (more reliable and easy to carry/use) small pistol? Possibly the term for it in greek would be 'peristropho', though i will look for the jargon.

 

[Lexicus]

A spring gun is probably this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun

I think that the dash between rail-roads and mantrap is meant to divide the sentence into two clauses, though it's confusing because if that's the case then a longer dash should be used. But I can find no reference to rail-road-mantraps and plenty to rail-roads and mantraps If you replace that dash with, say, a semicolon you get

Parachutes and rail-roads; mantraps and spring-guns!

Which makes a lot more sense than "rail-roads-mantraps". Of course, from the context it's impossible to tell if he means this kind of mantrap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control)
or this kind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(snare)

I would bet on the latter since a spring-gun is also a sort of trap.

 

[Hrothbern]

That packet-boat

the first time I can trace back the word pakketboot in dutch is in 1650 in the meaning of veerboot (ferryboat)

Ferryboats crossing lakes or to islands were at that time definitely on a regular time schedule, a regular route, and transported passengers, mail, goods => all the 5 elements already discussed and together.

I think all in all that the regular route and time schedule are most significant, at the expense of significant higher cost because of speed and also sailing when there was no full pay load (!).
That (I think) made what was transported subordinate and therefore packet to indicate it could mean everything valuable that needed in time delivery.

 

[Kyriakos]

A spring gun is probably this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun

I think that the dash between rail-roads and mantrap is meant to divide the sentence into two clauses, though it's confusing because if that's the case then a longer dash should be used. But I can find no reference to rail-road-mantraps and plenty to rail-roads and mantraps If you replace that dash with, say, a semicolon you get

Parachutes and rail-roads; mantraps and spring-guns!

Which makes a lot more sense than "rail-roads-mantraps". Of course, from the context it's impossible to tell if he means this kind of mantrap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control)
or this kind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(snare)

I would bet on the latter since a spring-gun is also a sort of trap.

Would be interesting to further inquire on this...

While it may be what you say (because the person speaking has a stutter of sorts too), i would also want to know if train mantraps were in existence by the 1840 or around that They might, given they would be mostly used to safely separate train wagons in case of trouble (i suppose). It isn't certain, though, and there is a potent counter-incentive in the case there were the other things in the 1840s: The person is fascinated by HIGH-tech stuff (for the time), and highly-mechanical things, not something simpler/non grandiose, so your point may be in the end false in this case.
Also, google produces various images of small pistols for 'spring gun' (https://www.google.gr/search?q=spri...su7WAhVHvBQKHcFUCV8Q_AUICigB&biw=1301&bih=669), so i will have to also ask if the small gun/pistol was a new invention at that time?

 

[Lexicus]

Would be interesting to further inquire on this...

While it may indeed be what you say (because the person speaking has a stutter of sorts too), i would also want to know if train mantraps were in existence by the 1840 or around that It isn't certain, though.
Also, google produces various images of small pistols for 'spring gun' (https://www.google.gr/search?q=spri...su7WAhVHvBQKHcFUCV8Q_AUICigB&biw=1301&bih=669), so i will have to also ask if the small gun/pistol was a new invention at that time?

Eh. I just found this article which says

Spring-piston airguns are one of the newer types of powerplants, coming into being about 1840. The first spring-piston guns were long guns that used volute springs instead of helically coiled springs to drive the piston. Take your belt and wind it into a tight coil on a flat surface like a table. Then pull on the center of the belt and it will rise, creating a conical spiral. The flat belt will now be an elongated spiral with a wide end and a narrow end. That is the shape of a volute spring.

Instead of leather, the springmaker starts with a flat steel bar that he winds into a flat coil, just like the belt. The last move is to stretch the spring by pressing the center upward. Once it takes that form, it’s hardened and becomes springy.

So the timing is exactly right for this to be what Poe is referring to. Toss-up, sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Oh, and nevermind. Forget what all of what I just said. I found another article that lays the matter to rest decisively!

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_41/outLXI06/outLXI06n.pdf

Nowadays, therefore, the once dreaded notice, “Man-traps and Spring-guns Set Here,” has no more significance than the equally terrifying notice, “Mesembryanthemums and Scolopendriums Set Here,”

This establishes that "man-traps and spring-guns" was a cultural trope that would have been familiar to many English-speakers at the time Poe wrote that piece. The article there was written in 1901 and Miller Christy was a historian. This means we're talking mantraps as in traps used to catch men, and I was right about the dash dividing the sentence.

 

[Kyriakos]

Eh. I just found this article which says



So the timing is exactly right for this to be what Poe is referring to. Toss-up, sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Oh, and nevermind. Forget what all of what I just said. I found another article that lays the matter to rest decisively!

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_41/outLXI06/outLXI06n.pdf



This establishes that "man-traps and spring-guns" was a cultural trope that would have been familiar to many English-speakers at the time Poe wrote that piece. The article there was written in 1901 and Miller Christy was a historian. This means we're talking mantraps as in traps used to catch men, and I was right about the dash dividing the sentence.

Interesting! So if this was a phrase, the mantraps would be the trap you mentioned and not the train mechanism?

edit: at any rate i will go with the animal-trap (along with lengthy footnote, using also your phrase reference, thanks!!!!!)