General help with obscure english expressions, thread :)

[timtofly]

My guess, the prism was the whole entity, the probiscus and the two staffs. It was not written as two prisms, but one. When you mention two staffs, and then go back to one prism, the body of writing has a huge disconnect without enough information.

A state of mind we are not privy to? Unless in thinking about a staff with a prism attached to the end of it, and both antennas had a prism shape at the end, it was a thought about the creature and a different thought about an actual staff and prism that the shape of the antenna triggered.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, at any rate i think i can move on from that, now ^^

Some bits are vague in Poe, and usually that is because he tends to deliberately present jargon, and at times he may be unwittingly wrong (this remains a possibility re his 'perfect prism' instead of the jargon 'regular prism', if he meant that). Later on in the story he makes a fleeting comment about how the discussions between the narrator and his host were in the past on "various points of speculative philosophy". Now this can be meant more generally, to allude to any theoretical subject in philosophy, but it also can allude specifically to things like platonic types/archetypes or later a priori senses and so on. Given it is Poe, it may be noted for effect. In the footnote i have to cover both cases

Anyway, 450 words left to finish translating this story as well.

 

[Kyriakos]

Two obscure phrases from Poe (from the story 'The man of the crowd') :

1)They were undoubtedly noblemen, merchants, attorneys, tradesmen, stock-jobbers- the Eupatrids and the common-places of society

2)The tribe of clerks was an obvious one; and here I discerned two remarkable divisions. There were the junior clerks of flash houses- young gentlemen with tight coats, bright boots, well-oiled hair, and supercilious lips.

-Does 'stock-jobbers' refer to stock-exchange broker-types? (or is it more general as an intermediate seller of something?)
-Are "flash-houses" only brothels? (hm, were 'lower clerks' used in brothels? ).

Thanks in advance...!

 

[sophie]

Re: stock-jobbers - yes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockjobber

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/jobber

Re: flash houses, sorta. It’s a place where lowlifes operate. Poe is likening the low-level boot licker brokers to whores who gussy themselves up and will do anything to move up the chain.

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Flash house

https://forromancereaders.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/rookeries-flash-houses-and-academies-of-vice/

 

[Kyriakos]

A couple more riddles by Poe...

The division of the upper clerks of staunch firms, or of the "steady old fellows," it was not possible to mistake. These were known by their coats and pantaloons of black or brown, made to sit comfortably, with white cravats and waistcoats, broad solid-looking shoes, and thick hose or gaiters. They had all slightly bald heads, from which the right ears, long used to pen-holding, had an odd habit of standing off on end. I observed that they always removed or settled their hats with both bands, and wore watches, with short gold chains of a substantial and ancient pattern. Theirs was the affectation of respectability- if indeed there be an affectation so honorable.

a)What were the 'steady old fellows'? Is this something meant for the people themselves (similar to 'the good old boys' etc?) or is it a reference to the firms they work in? (eg some very staunch and specific firms, like how today people use such terms for a small group of mega-companies).

b) The substantial and ancient pattern of the chain is the geometric shape of it? Eg (likely) based on the ellipse? (it would account for the characterization, but is it so?)

 

[Gori the Grey]

a) it seems to me he's referencing a commonly used term for upper clerks. "upper clerks, or as people tend to call them "the steady old fellows,"

b) on the pattern of the watch chains, he either has some pattern in mind that his readers will identify as the ancient pattern for watch chains, or he doesn't want to specify anything in particular but just wants the reader of any era to supply his or her own imagined design that connotes antiquity.

 

[sophie]

Doesn't seem to me like it's a commonly used term, as I can only find reference to Poe's use of the phrase. However, your reading of it seems to me correct. That also being said, the Spanish translation of this short story leaves the phrase untranslated:

"La división de los altos empleados de casas sólidas, o de los steady old fellows (o compañeros firmes y antiguos) era imposible de confundir."

Gori's analysis for b) is also correct. I think you're reading far too heavily into what was supposed to be a simple sarcastic jab at the undeserved air of respectability the clerks are gathering for themselves. At best maybe you could draw a subtext that he's implying they belong to a fraternal order of some variety or another (which would fit with the idea of a false air of respectability or refinement he's trying to draw out), but again, that's not explicit in the text, so probably shouldn't belong in a translation.

 

[Kyriakos]

Thank you both

 

[Kyriakos]

Any idea as to what "pic-men" are? I assume they are carriers, eg street-carriers of some kind? Similar to porters, although not confined to a set building?

[...]and who clutched with quivering fingers, as they strode through the crowd, at every object which came within their reach; beside these, pic-men, porters, coal-heavers, sweeps; organ-grinders, monkey-exhibitors, and ballad-mongers, those who vended with those who sang; ragged artizans and exhausted laborers of every description, and all full of a noisy and inordinate vivacity which jarred discordantly upon the ear, and gave an aching sensation to the eye.

 

[GinandTonic]

I'm inclined to assume it's a man who uses a pickaxe but it could refer to find the pea/ queen card type side shows. So either a labourer or the side show con-artist where people know it's a con but still pay to see if they can beat the guy/ to see it done well.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I think GinandTonic has got it: One who uses a pick. It's a list of lists, thieves; then manual laborers; then showmen. The sub-list in question is a diverse list of manual laborers. Simply repeating the meaning of porters would be redundant, but "ditch-diggers" (essentially) are sufficiently different in kind from the other manual laborers listed.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Thank you I thought of digger (from the pick-axe) but wasn't sure. Then i wondered if the 'pic' was more tied to 'picking up' etc.
(afterall, if porters meant largely fixed infront of a building, they wouldn't be advancing in the crowd in the first place).

 

[Kyriakos]

Anyone know if at the 1840s the term "grossest" would have any secondary meaning, similar to one of its current known meanings as 'nasty' or 'evil' etc?
I have no doubt about the term having had the main meaning of 'having more volume", and that Poe uses it as such, but it would be good to know if any secondary meaning, particularly of evil or nasty, or despicable etc, would be there already in the mid 19th century, since in that case Poe would be making indirect use of that as well.

And that about settles this story too.

 

[GinandTonic]

Need context. I think gross has always had a negative meaning around too much. eg "the man was gross and debauched" - the guy was excessive (and perhaps ill-mannered in his eating/ drinking/ whoring with an implication this may well be visible in his appearance.

 

[really]

A gross was also measure - a dozen dozen depending on context.

 

[Kyriakos]

Context (not that it isn't ambiguous, but it seems evident that Poe meant it to connote officially (larger) volume, and unofficially (but also crucially) wickedness or similar:

"The old man," I said at length, "is the type and the genius of deep crime. He refuses to be alone. He is the man of the crowd. It will be in vain to follow, for I shall learn no more of him, nor of his deeds. The worst heart of the world is a grosser book than the 'Hortulus Animae,'* and perhaps it is but one of the great mercies of God that "er lasst sich nicht lesen."

* The "Hortulus Animae cum Oratiunculis Aliquibus Superadditis" of Grunninger.

In essence he seems to mean that the worst heart is something larger than the relatively anodyne -albeit still unreadable as noted in the german quote in the text- prayer-book; the Hortulus Animae, which literally means 'little garden' (of the soul), and thus has little volume.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, it just means bigger. OED doesn't have an entry for "nasty" really. Possibly a lacuna worth drawing to their attention.

 

[GinandTonic]

So bigger with the possible connotation of being excessive or in some way coarse.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, OED get that far: coarse. Just not how young Americans use the word: disgusting, icky.

 

[GinandTonic]

I think the chain of meaning was - a specific large number - a nonspecific large number - too much/ excess - coarse > tacky/ obese> unpleasant in a "fleshy" sense. Ending with a sense of unpleasantly tacky/ excessive physicality in general usage. Used in the Buffy/ Valley sense as a general term of opprobrium.