General help with obscure english expressions, thread :)

[Hrothbern]

That rail-road-mangat

We say now railroad.
I wondered whether in the time railroads were a new concept railroad would not also be written as rail-road.
So I checked on Google Ngram the frequency of the words railroad and rail-road over time in books published.
What you can see is that the word rail-road really starts in 1820, peaks in 1835 and fades away in 1860.
The word railroad really starts also in 1820 and becomes from 1835 onward more frequent than rail-road, becoming our mainstream word.

Assuming that the use of rail-road was not "only" from the phrase of Poe himself, because that phrase is I guess not from 1820, and it was only in 1 book.
Nevertheless, it was easy to eliminate, because in the phrase the word Nassau is used.
So I made another check on the frequency of rail-road and Nassau. Here it shows that Nassau is highly less frequent than rail-road.

So from there it could very well be that Poe used rail-road as one word for our todays railroad.
That leaves mangat alone or in combination open.
So I asked Ngram to show the frequency of mangat alone, rail-road-mangat and the word nassau as reference.
It shows that the word mangat has a real low frequency and shows up after 1850 (whereby zero before 1850. You cannot see that from the graph, but if you are in Ngram, you can hoover with your cursor over a line to get the number)

If you replace that dash with, say, a semicolon you get

Parachutes and rail-roads; mantraps and spring-guns!

Same conclusion

 

[Kyriakos]

Thank you, Mr. Holmes and Dr. Watson! Your help was really of the highest order!

 

[Kyriakos]

Ok... Here is another phrase, a bit convoluted, from the same story. Ambiguous part is in red

[narrator is discussing with a woman on a hugely important matter, while they are seated in the pew, then is cut off: ]
"Man," here broke in [the priest], at the top of his voice, and with a thump that came near knocking the pulpit about our ears; "man that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live; he cometh up and is cut down like a flower!" I started to the extremity of the pew, and perceived by the animated looks of the divine, that the wrath which had nearly proved fatal to the pulpit had been excited by the whispers of the lady and myself. There was no help for it; so I submitted with a good grace, and listened, in all the martyrdom of dignified silence, to the balance of that very capital discourse.
"

A couple of things:

1) "knocking the pulpit about our ears" sounds a bit strange; it is obvious from the next sentences that the pulpit indeed was nearly ruined by the thump, but what does 'about our ears' mean? They were seated not that close to the pulpit at any rate.
2) did he accept willingly (and/or in good spirit) to listen to the rest of the sermon? (i suppose so)
3) does 'dignified silence' refer to silence which (is expected so as to) dignify the sermon, OR silence which dignifies the listener of the sermon? (i suppose the former?)
(3 1/2... 'the divine' is obviously the priest, right?)
4) (which is the ambiguous part) Is the 'to the balance of that very capital discourse' refering to the actual continuation of the sermon? (ie are the words uttered there about a flower part of a very famous sermon which continues to a striking next image?) OR (which i find far more likely) does it refer to losing the chance to carry on the discussion he had before he was cut off by the yelling priest?
Remember that the discussion is the only important thing for this narrator. Which is why i suppose this is what he means, but would it be grammatically making sense so to put it that way in english?

 

[Dachs]

Ok... Here is another phrase, a bit convoluted, from the same story. Ambiguous part is in red

[narrator is discussing with a woman on a hugely important matter, while they are seated in the pew, then is cut off: ]
"Man," here broke in [the priest], at the top of his voice, and with a thump that came near knocking the pulpit about our ears; "man that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live; he cometh up and is cut down like a flower!" I started to the extremity of the pew, and perceived by the animated looks of the divine, that the wrath which had nearly proved fatal to the pulpit had been excited by the whispers of the lady and myself. There was no help for it; so I submitted with a good grace, and listened, in all the martyrdom of dignified silence, to the balance of that very capital discourse.
"

A couple of things:

1) "knocking the pulpit about our ears" sounds a bit strange; it is obvious from the next sentences that the pulpit indeed was nearly ruined by the thump, but what does 'about our ears' mean? They were seated not that close to the pulpit at any rate.
2) did he accept willingly (and/or in good spirit) to listen to the rest of the sermon? (i suppose so)
3) does 'dignified silence' refer to silence which (is expected so as to) dignify the sermon, OR silence which dignifies the listener of the sermon? (i suppose the former?)
(3 1/2... 'the divine' is obviously the priest, right?)
4) (which is the ambiguous part) Is the 'to the balance of that very capital discourse' refering to the actual continuation of the sermon? (ie are the words uttered there about a flower part of a very famous sermon which continues to a striking next image?) OR (which i find far more likely) does it refer to losing the chance to carry on the discussion he had before he was cut off by the yelling priest?
Remember that the discussion is the only important thing for this narrator. Which is why i suppose this is what he means, but would it be grammatically making sense so to put it that way in english?

1. It does read awkwardly. My guess is that it's a connection to the expression "box about the ears", which refers both to a literal instance of battery - hitting somebody on the side of the head - and also to a verbal assault. "I'll box him about the ears" can easily be read as "I'll yell at him". Knocking the pulpit about their ears in this case is associated with the narrator's realization in the next sentence that the Reverend Doctor's aural attack was meant for himself and Tabitha T.

2. "Submitted with a good grace" here is probably not meant literally. The narrator carries on a side conversation during a sermon, gets yelled at, and contritely refrains from conversation for the rest of the sermon. He is not happy about it, but doesn't make a fuss - hence the comment about "martyrdom". (Earlier in the passage, when he says horresco referens, he indicates that the entire experience was rather mortifying.)

3. "Dignified silence" here means the latter. He submits to the indignity of being reproached for his disrespectful side conversation and the indignity of listening to the preacher's harangue with personal dignity: he doesn't object loudly, or cause a row, or make any further interruptions.

3.5. Yes.

4. It's not meant to indicate that the rest of the sermon was really good. The Reverend Doctor here is quoting the Book of Job, specifically an often-used version from the Book of Common Prayer. Here it's probably meant as an indication that the sermon is really a bit of boilerplate fire-and-brimstone oratory, and "capital discourse" is verbal irony.

So the passage, in my reading, means this:

The narrator went to this service by Rev. Dr. Drummummupp (a pun on "drum 'em up"), a typical angry Second Great Awakening American Protestant preacher, and happened to find himself next to a friend, Tabitha T., who knew about this General that the narrator was so anxious to learn about. During the sermon, they tried to carry on a conversation about the General with hand signals and whispers, but the Reverend Doctor noticed and yelled at them. This chastised them, and both Tabitha and the narrator remained quiet for the rest of the sermon, thoroughly embarrassed by being called out in front of the rest of the congregation. Apparently he didn't seize any opportunity after the service to ask Tabitha to elaborate on her description.

 

[Kyriakos]

^That about puts that to rest, thank you very much, Dachs

My translation generally follows things with needed vagueness/double meaning when required, and it has been the case in other parts of this story.

By the way, speaking of puns, is there any such pun in the actual title of the story? "The Man that was used up".
Cause ideally i want to be equally vague in the title, if Poe also was. Eg one possible version (if there is no pun there, and just means 'spent') would be to present it as "The man that had all taken from him" (less pronounced in greek; cause i don't want the reader to immediately guess what is going on). Word by word won't cut it, given no greek expression for that uses spent or used in that manner.

Besides, all of the puns allude to the savagery of what happened to the man - So i am translating them accordingly, with neutral footnotes as well.

 

[Dachs]

^That about puts that to rest, thank you very much, Dachs

My translation generally follows things with needed vagueness/double meaning when required, and it has been the case in other parts of this story.

By the way, speaking of puns, is there any such pun in the actual title of the story? "The Man that was used up".
Cause ideally i want to be equally vague in the title, if Poe also was. Eg one possible version (if there is no pun there, and just means 'spent') would be to present it as "The man that had all taken from him" (less pronounced in greek; cause i don't want the reader to immediately guess what is going on). Word by word won't cut it, given no greek expression for that uses spent or used in that manner.

Besides, all of the puns allude to the savagery of what happened to the man - So i am translating them accordingly, with neutral footnotes as well.

The title of "The Man That Was Used Up" isn't really punning on anything. So long as your translated title stays vague, you should be good. It's unfortunate that there isn't an expression in Greek that comes close to "spent" or "used" like that, because otherwise guessing the punch line would be pretty easy.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, i looked into it a bit more, and there is a good local expression meaning "lost all use", which seems to be what that english phrase meant (at least at the period). It (the greek one) would translate to "he gave all he had to give"(ie he has nothing left to give/do), but is (much like Poe's phrase) itself very much a platitude, and thus doesn't tell the reader what horror it refers to
And, again (as i read) like Poe's 'used up' phrase, it is one routinely used for all kinds of mundane things, including politicians So my current title is "The man who gave all he had to give" (well, in greek, anyway)... The reader will just think it alludes to his heroism.

For me it was a stark contrast, because the first time i read a greek translation of this story (21 years ago!) it had a VERY ominous title, but one which surely is not what Poe wanted it to have. (loosely translating to) "The one they tortured" The bad translator didn't bother with keeping the 'man'-'man alive'-mandragora' etc connections either, but i do.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ok, nearing the end now, and another strange term. "Rout" (apparently some kind of meeting type, or place)

"Still I consoled myself with the reflection that the tide of ill luck would not run against me forever, and so determined to make a bold push for information at the rout of that bewitching little angel, the graceful Mrs. Pirouette."

Any info on what rout means in this context?

 

[Zkribbler]

Any info on what rout means in this context?

I might need more context. Could it mean to flee from battle? E.g. The Turkish army was routed by the Greek charge.

Getting back to "spent." Do the Greeks have a word to describe a bullet which travels a great distance so that, when it hits its target, it's lost so much momentum, it merely bounces off? "A spent bullet."

 

[Kyriakos]

I might need more context. Could it mean to flee from battle? E.g. The Turkish army was routed by the Greek charge.

Getting back to "spent." Do the Greeks have a word to describe a bullet which travels a great distance so that, when it hits its target, it's lost so much momentum, it merely bounces off? "A spent bullet."

Yes, but the two terms i can currently think of for that have both issues; one is used always in relation to money, and the other very strongly alludes to death or near-death (so would ruin the covert effect Poe went for) (actually, there is a third term, but is derived from turkish (actually arabic, but got here through turkish, so hell no-- i am way too much of a purist to use such a word ^^; the term is derived from 'haram')

Ok, here is more of that text, if it can help you with the meaning, but i don't think it refers to the common use of rout (in battle) :

"
Still I consoled myself with the reflection that the tide of ill luck would not run against me forever, and so determined to make a bold push for information at the rout of that bewitching little angel, the graceful Mrs. Pirouette.

“Smith?” said Mrs. P., as we twirled about together in a pas de zéphyr,{j} (17) “Smith? — why not General John A. B. C.? Dreadful business that of the Bugaboos, wasn’t it? — terrible creatures, those Indians! — do turn out your toes! I really am ashamed of you — man of great courage, poor fellow! — but this is a wonderful age for invention — O dear me, I’m out of breath — quite a desperado — prodigies of valor — never heard!! — can’t believe it — I shall have to sit down and enlighten{k} you — Smith! why, he’s the man ——”

Man-Fred, I tell you!” here bawled out Miss Bas-Bleu,(18) as I led Mrs. Pirouette to a seat. “Did ever anybody hear the like? It’s Man-Fred, I say, and not at all by any means Man-Friday.” Here Miss Bas-Bleu beckoned to me in a very peremptory manner; and I was obliged, will I nill I, to leave Mrs. P. for the purpose of deciding a dispute touching the title of a certain poetical drama of Lord Byron’s.(19) Although I pronounced, with great promptness, that the true title was Man-Friday, and not by any means Man-Fred, yet when I returned to seek{l} Mrs. Pirouette she was not to be discovered, and I made my retreat from the house in a very bitter spirit of animosity against the whole race of the Bas-Bleus."

From the footnotes in that page (and the text itself) i assume the 'rout' is some sort of non-prestigious/informal social-gathering. Or it could just mean a very nightly gathering? (in a way where 'the remains' end up, as in a rout).

 

[Zkribbler]

Poking through The Free Dictionary by Farlex, I've come up with the following candidates:

3. A public disturbance; a riot.
4. A fashionable gathering.
5. Archaic A group of people, especially knights, or of animals, especially wolves.

3. a noisy rabble
4. (Law) law a group of three or more people proceeding to commit an illegal act
5. archaic a large party or social gathering

 

[Kyriakos]

Probably a fashionable gathering, then ^^

 

[Kyriakos]

Moving on to another story:

Question about prisms (well, some deductive work included, Holmes )

"

Extending forward, parallel with the proboscis, and on each side of it, was a gigantic staff, thirty or forty feet in length, formed seemingly of pure crystal and in shape a perfect prism,- it reflected in the most gorgeous manner the rays of the declining sun.

"

I am translating a few stories by E.A.Poe, and the above passage is in one of them (The Sphinx). I am thinking about what to write in the footnote, about the description.

The point of contention is that i am not sure if i should note that the prism would likely be made with a regular polygon of at least 5 side as its basis; ie it wouldn't be triangular or square. Given that Poe mentions the term "staff". I want to ask (see, this is also a literary question) if the term 'staff' would reasonably allow for such an inference on my part

The story is -on the surface - about the description of some vast monster. In the end it was

Spoiler :

a bug. Story is, in essence, about impressions, and state of mind.

 

[Zkribbler]

t i am not sure if i should note that the prism would likely be made with a regular polygon of at least 5 side as its basis; ie it wouldn't be triangular or square. Given that Poe mentions the term "staff". I want to ask (see, this is also a literary question) if the term 'staff' would reasonably allow for such an inference on my part

I think of a staff as a rod, i.e. cylindrical in shape. To describe it as a prism, to me, is inaccurate. So I can be of no help.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think of a staff as a rod, i.e. cylindrical in shape. To describe it as a prism, to me, is inaccurate. So I can be of no help.

surely no natural staff-like formation (let alone a massive one in the example) would be an actual cylinder?
(not that it would be a perfect prism either, but i suppose Poe is to blame there ).

 

[Hrothbern]

well... as big leap
In Poe's time people did fish with a rod.
The material ofc not being the modern glass fibre or carbon fibre to get extreme strength and resilience in a thin long rod.
The lower end rods were just bamboo as a whole. So hollow within.
The high end rods were splitcane.
Here you take very thick bamboo, only use the massive material to get triangular prisms, which you glue together (6 of them) into a hexagonal prism.
thin, tough, strong also for long rods.
Was also used for many other engineering applications because wood has no fatigue issues like metal.
Perhaps Poe added to that well known symbol of strenght the crystal appearance and voila.

The idea to use cellulose as extreme light and tough material, with resins, was seen at that time as high tech.
Nice example is the airship build in the Jules Verne futuristic book Robur the conqueror.

 

[Kyriakos]

well... as big leap
In Poe's time people did fish with a rod.
The material ofc not being the modern glass fibre or carbon fibre to get extreme strength and resilience in a thin long rod.
The lower end rods were just bamboo as a whole. So hollow within.
The high end rods were splitcane.
Here you take very thick bamboo, only use the massive material to get triangular prisms, which you glue together (6 of them) into a hexagonal prism.
thin, tough, strong also for long rods.
Was also used for many other engineering applications because wood has no fatigue issues like metal.
Perhaps Poe added to that well known symbol of strenght the crystal appearance and voila.

The idea to use cellulose as extreme light and tough material, with resins, was seen at that time as high tech.
Nice example is the airship build in the Jules Verne futuristic book Robur the conqueror.

Maybe its reflecting abilities could be a further clue on what a decent-ish approach would be. At worst i could just not include the elaboration of the footnote, ie not play smarter than needed
I suppose a prism which is at least based on a pentagon, if not more sides, would produce a more impressive reflective light effect than a triangular or square one, although that is debatable, moreso when in the story the being moved only for a bit, but probably in a straight-ish line.

FWIW, the actual "monster" was (a false impression about) the following bug, the two rods being the antennae:





My guess would be a prism based on a pentagon, but, again, it isn't mentioned in the story.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Here's the OED's first definition of prism:

A solid figure with two end faces that are similar, equal, and parallel rectilinear figures, and whose sides are parallelograms or rectangles.

In other words, it is not the pyramidal prism that we're used to seeing (e.g. Pink Floyd), but something very like a cylinder, except with rectangular sides rather than smooth, circular surface.

If made of a transparent material, it would diffract light somewhat like the pyramidal prism, though not so cleanly into a single distinct spectrum.

In the story, it's the antennae.

 

[Kyriakos]

Here's the OED's first definition of prism:

A solid figure with two end faces that are similar, equal, and parallel rectilinear figures, and whose sides are parallelograms or rectangles.

In other words, it is not the pyramidal prism that we're used to seeing (e.g. Pink Floyd), but something very like a cylinder, except with rectangular sides rather than smooth, circular surface.

If made of a transparent material, it would diffract light somewhat like the pyramidal prism, though not so cleanly into a single distinct spectrum.

In the story, it's the antennae.

But isn't "perfect prism" connoting a more specific type of prism? Iirc it should have the extending shape be one regular polygon, no? (triangle, square, pentagon, hexagon etc).

(hm, i suppose the term is 'regular prism' for that, but does this mean that Poe wrote a pleonasm there? what does 'perfect' mean here?)

 

[Gori the Grey]

"All of the rectangular sides are the same width," would be my guess, or "all of the sides of the extending shape (as you put it) are of equal length."

In my imagination, it's hexagonal.