General help with obscure english expressions, thread :)

[Kyriakos]

The pants these dudes are wearing are knickerbockers.

Nice!

Is it a metaphor of anything? (i will just check that myself ^_^ ) (eg "blue stocking" - phrase in Poe - was a period saying/metaphor with negative connotation, meaning a woman who is into art discussions etc)

thanks for the help, guys. Will post more if i come across anything else.

 

[sophie]

Ok, so I quickly consulted some German, French, and Spanish translations.

I can't figure out the provenance of the Spanish translation I found, but I suspect it's a newer translation(?). The German and French ones are relatively contemporary to the original text, being publications from 1846 and 1862 respectively.

The Spanish doesn't use any kind of address or honorific:

Algunos cuentan que fue hechizada por cierto doctor alemán en los primeros tiempos de los asentamientos de colonos; para otros, fue un antiguo jefe indio, mago o profeta de la tribu, el que encantó la región antes de que la descubriese Hendrick Hudson

Both the German and the French translate it as "master" in their respective languages, rather than monsieur or Herr:

Einige behaupten, der Ort sei von einem hochdeutschen Doctor in den frühern Tagen der Niederlassung behext worden; nach Andern hat ein alter indianischer Häuptling, ein Prophet oder Zauberer seines Stammes, seinen Hexensabbath dort gehalten, ehe das Land von Meister Hendrick Hudson entedeckt worden war

Aucuns disent que l'endroit fut ensorcelé par un grand docteur allemand, dans les premiers temps de la colonie ; d'autres, qu'un vieux chef indien, prophète ou voyant de sa tribu, y tenait ses assises avant que le pays fût découvert par maître Hendrick Hudson.

It seems, at least going by the Spanish, that the title doesn't bear larger import and could theoretically be left out. The German and the French seem to be fine just going with a direct translation of master into their respective languages. I think you should be fine going either way. The text doesn't seem to crucially hinge on the inclusion of the word. I'd probably go the French/German way just for completeness/literalness' sake.

ETA: poking around for other Spanish translations.

This is one from 2016:

Algunos dicen que un doctor alemán embrujó el lugar, en los primeros días de la colonia; otros afirman que un viejo jefe indio celebraba aquí sus peculiares ceremonias, antes que estas tierras fueran descubiertas por Hendrick Hudson

And this one is from 1920:

Algunos afirman que el lugar fué hechizado en los primeros días de la colonización por un ilustre doctor alemán; otros, que un viejo jefe indio, el profeta o adivino de la tribu, celebraba allí sus conjuros antes del descubrimiento de aquella región por Master Héndrick Hudson

A more recent translation in German yielded a very similar translation to the one I already produced above.

 

[Kyriakos]

^I feared as much.

Thanks. Will decide if i need to change it in the end. There are only byzantine terms with similar meaning (maybe the Meister/Master even derives from those; even if that would be so... i can't use them at all ^_^ ).
It is a rather trivial point, though, so i will move on for the time being.

 

[sophie]

^I feared as much.

Thanks. Will decide if i need to change it in the end. There are only byzantine terms with similar meaning (maybe the Meister/Master even derives from those; even if that would be so... i can't use them at all ^_^ ).
It is a rather trivial point, though, so i will move on for the time being.

In all three languages it tracks closely (and has associations with) the old guild system. A master was someone who had completed requisite work (and contributed a large sum of money to the guild), and was thereby granted full legal status within the guild and was then allowed to ply their craft as an independent operator (as opposed to a journeyman - someone who has completed their apprenticeship and must now work under other masters).

The term carries through to the University system, a pseudo-guild itself in Medieval society. It is now almost exclusively understood in that context. A master is someone who has performed a large piece of original work demonstrating mastery in the respective craft (e.g. in Academia: publishing a piece of original research which contributes to the discipline).

ETA: I added a bit about how master comes from Latin magister, composed of magis (more, greater), and -ter (an agentive suffix), cf. minister. Greek has some correspondences, that I don't care to look up right now; my original post got eated. Anyway, further searching on wiktionary revealed that one meaning of master in English was that for "a captain of a trading or navigational vessal", which may be the answer to your original query, however maître and Meister don't appear to carry this same possible meaning, as best I can tell. Also the exclusion of the word altogether in the Spanish, again, tells me that conveying this specific sense of the word is not especially essential to the translation.

 

[Kyriakos]

In all three languages it tracks closely (and has associations with) the old guild system. A master was someone who had completed requisite work (and contributed a large sum of money to the guild), and was thereby granted full legal status within the guild and was then allowed to ply their craft as an independent operator (as opposed to a journeyman - someone who has completed their apprenticeship and must now work under other masters).

The term carries through to the University system, a pseudo-guild itself in Medieval society. It is now almost exclusively understood in that context. A master is someone who has performed a large piece of original work demonstrating mastery in the respective craft (e.g. in Academia: publishing a piece of original research which contributes to the discipline).

currently have it as "θαλασσοπόρος", which is what Juan De Fuca, or Magellan or similar explorers are called. I think it likely will suffice. Only other alternatives would be the greek version of "captain" (trivia: byzantine greek 'katepan', instead of later 'kapetan' etc), and the hellenized french word "maitre"; neither of which i like.
Anyway, thalassoporos will do, i think.
"Maitre" would be the closest, but the term has perhaps a wrong connotation, and comes across as very high-class/aristocratic or just alien, the latter also due to being a foreign language term.

 

[sophie]

currently have it as "θαλασσοπόρος", which is what Juan De Fuca, or Magellan or similar explorers are called. I think it likely will suffice. Only other alternatives would be the greek version of "captain" (byzantine greek katepan, instead of kapetan etc), and the hellenized french word "maitre"; neither of which i like.
Anyway, thalassoporos will do, i think.

There's also (per wiktionary) μάστερος and μάγιστρος. What is a Master's degree called in Greek?

I personally don't like captain either, as that word exists in English, and if Irving had intended to use it, he would have. Thalassaporos seems like a safe bet though.

 

[Kyriakos]

There's also (per wiktionary) μάστερος and μάγιστρος. What is a Master's degree called in Greek?

It is called either μεταπτυχιακό [ie post-(first)degree] or just "Master" (the english term can be used).
Yes, magistros does exist, but it really cannot be used in this case. Unless he was running a dromon

"Maitre" would be the more valid, i suppose, ie "Μετρ". It is what the translated title of Bulgacov's story uses (Master and Margarita).
I will see. I dislike using it atm.

"Masteros" is just way too obscure (i hadn't even heard of it; i was thinking of magistros when saying the english 'master' might derive from that).

 

[sophie]

I think thalassaporos would work, given a possible meaning of "master" is as "a captain of a trading or navigational vessel" (as distinct from a "captain" who would be the captain of a military vessel, presumably).

 

[Kyriakos]

I think thalassaporos would work, given a possible meaning of "master" is as "a captain of a trading or navigational vessel" (as distinct from a "captain" who would be the captain of a military vessel, presumably).

Yes. It is used only for heads/officials in exploring expeditions (when used literally, anyway).

 

[Takhisis]

I'd go with no title at all myself. Written English is very formal and writers like to add titles to everybody (think of it, England/Britain/The UK is one of the few places where having a title changes your ‘style’), and now it's always Mr. this and Mr. that.

Does "Knickerbocker" mean anything? (it is a surname)

In the preface of the story: "Found among the papers of the late DIEDRICH KNICKERBOCKER." (again, i don't really have to include a footnote on this; just asking in case anyone knows ^_^ )

A type of legwear, as mentioned above, and there's also the Knickerbocker Glory ice-cream thing.


And remember that katepano and kapitan don't share the same etymology!

 

[yung.carl.jung]

It is what the translated title of Bulgacov's story uses (Master and Margarita).

that book is wild. few books go very deep yet also make you laugh so hard you shoot liquid out of your snothole.

In all three languages it tracks closely (and has associations with) the old guild system. A master was someone who had completed requisite work (and contributed a large sum of money to the guild), and was thereby granted full legal status within the guild and was then allowed to ply their craft as an independent operator (as opposed to a journeyman - someone who has completed their apprenticeship and must now work under other masters).

The term carries through to the University system, a pseudo-guild itself in Medieval society. It is now almost exclusively understood in that context. A master is someone who has performed a large piece of original work demonstrating mastery in the respective craft (e.g. in Academia: publishing a piece of original research which contributes to the discipline).

ETA: I added a bit about how master comes from Latin magister, composed of magis (more, greater), and -ter (an agentive suffix), cf. minister. Greek has some correspondences, that I don't care to look up right now; my original post got eated. Anyway, further searching on wiktionary revealed that one meaning of master in English was that for "a captain of a trading or navigational vessal", which may be the answer to your original query, however maître and Meister don't appear to carry this same possible meaning, as best I can tell. Also the exclusion of the word altogether in the Spanish, again, tells me that conveying this specific sense of the word is not especially essential to the translation.

"Meister" indeed comes from the old guild system and is still very much in use today. For most apprenticeships there is a Meister status for which you have to do a proper Meisterprüfung, you even get a fancy certificate which is called Meisterbrief. It enables you to take in your own apprentices.

 

[Zkribbler]

Does "Knickerbocker" mean anything? (it is a surname)

Originally it referred to early Dutch settlers in New York, eventually it spread to all New Yorkers

 

[Hrothbern]

Currently translating a nice american short story; the legend of Sleepy Hollow, by Washington Irving

A first question: the title "Master" is used for Henry Hudson (the famous english navigator/explorer). Is this a title reserved for specific sea-commanders, or is it more generic? (eg something like 'first in command')?

Also (though i already think i have this correctly) i suppose Irving uses a nice pun in the name "Sleepy Hollow Boys", ie the locals of the area aren't just called thus because they live in that hollow valley, but also are empty-headed? (used in a note)

In Dutch related to people on board of a ship, the word is "Meester"
and is used as Kwartiermeester (Quartermaster), Hofmeester (Steward) and Meester (Chief Engineer).
(But never for the pilot or the captain / skipper)
EDIT
and the roots in Guild terminology
Meester, Gezel, Leerling (Master, Journeyman, Apprentice)

 

[Kyriakos]

Awesome info, all. Thanks

 

[Kyriakos]

Ok, just one word (with, i think, possible double meaning) :

His haunts are not confined to the valley, but extend at times to the adjacent roads, and especially to the vicinity of a church at no great distance. Indeed, certain of the most authentic historians of those parts, who have been careful in collecting and collating the floating facts concerning this spectre, allege that the body of the trooper having been buried in the churchyard, the ghost rides forth to the scene of battle in nightly quest of his head, and that the rushing speed with which he sometimes passes along the Hollow, like a midnight blast, is owing to his being belated, and in a hurry to get back to the churchyard before daybreak.

Does "floating" (facts) mean "available" facts? I mean another possibility might have to do with how prone to change they are (like any tall-tale). Apparently Irving means "available", though?

*

Btw, "Knickerbocker" seems to have been Irving's first pseudonym. So in a footnote i include this, as well as the term being a name for people in the area of Manhatan.

 

[sophie]

I'd say it means available. As in "facts floating in the ether, waiting to be picked up/examined."

 

[Kyriakos]

Btw, weren't "troopers" mounted shock troops?
Analogous to hussars etc? Though in this case apparently it is an irregular (mercenary).

Or is it closer to just "horseman"?

 

[Takhisis]

Troopers are cavalrymen. Remember that at the time cavalry didn't wear much armour anymore.
From wiktionary:

1. (military) A soldier of private rank in cavalry or armour. Abbreviated Tpr.

As for floating, yes, it is metaphorically floating, as if the character were surrounded by them.

 

[Kyriakos]

I want to ask if any of these two phrases is an idiom, with different meaning than the literal one:

They are like those little nooks of still water, which border a rapid stream, where we may see the straw and bubble riding quietly at anchor, or slowly revolving in their mimic harbor, undisturbed by the rush of the passing current. Though many years have elapsed since I trod the drowsy shades of Sleepy Hollow, yet I question whether I should not still find the same trees and the same families vegetating in its sheltered bosom.

Or, alternatively, if it is just about a (piece of?) straw and a bubble (small stuff found only in the quiet pocket next to the stream) and then just the hypnotic darkness/shadows

 

[sophie]

I don't understand what the first phrase is trying to say. It's certainly not an idiom which I've ever heard of. The second is a simple literary flourish.