1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

General Yield Value

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by BiteInTheMark, Feb 22, 2020.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,812
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Lets discuss about the value of the different yield types! (YEAH)

    I have observed very often AI completly neglecting food for working specialists, and this already in renaissance. Sometimes all of the AIs cities were running only as much food to get another citizen after 20-30 turns. I think, in the time before industrial age, a low focus to food is compensated to some degree by the AI bonuses, but by the nature of exponential food cost, it gets useless.
    By that time, I often have outgrowed the AI already by around 5 or more citizen per city, capital sometimes 10. Not having any happiness issues by that time indicates, that my big cities are running more efficiant than the AI ones and also, that the AI isnt managing its cities to an optimal degree.

    A short request to Gazebo revealed this:
    Spoiler AI Yield Type Values :

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = '0.5'
    WHERE Name = 'AI_CITYSTRATEGY_YIELD_DEFICIENT_FOOD';

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = '1.0'
    WHERE Name = 'AI_CITYSTRATEGY_YIELD_DEFICIENT_PRODUCTION';

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = '1.5'
    WHERE Name = 'AI_CITYSTRATEGY_YIELD_DEFICIENT_GOLD';

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = '2.5'
    WHERE Name = 'AI_CITYSTRATEGY_YIELD_DEFICIENT_SCIENCE';

    INSERT INTO Defines (Name, Value)
    SELECT 'AI_CITYSTRATEGY_YIELD_DEFICIENT_CULTURE', '2.5';


    Food is valued very low. (Gazebo noticed, the AI takes into account only the excess food, not the base food, so please keep that in mind)
    I would like to see here a higher value for food but it have to be tested, how much is healthy.
    Valuing gold higher than production seems wrong to me, cause often, hammer is worth twice as much as gold.
    Faith isnt in this list, cause its hard coded with 0.5 like food, this seems also too low for me, cause of the very rare nature of faith.

    To clarify (I hope its right) the AI tries to generate yields in this percentual composition:
    6% :c5food:
    12% :c5production:
    18%:c5gold:
    29%:c5culture:
    29%:c5science:
    6%:c5faith:

    Also.... if an AI citizen is able to work a tile with 3:c5science:, or a tile with 14:c5food:, it would choose the :c5science:, cause its in AIs eyes worth more.

    So people, seems this right? What do you think?
     
  2. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,160
    I'm hoping this isn't off-topic, but I find it pertinent because we're speaking about yields, and this relates to the later snowballing Cascades.

    What about starting city yields? The value of founding in the middle of nowhere (2 Food, 1 Production, 1 Gold) seems clearly inferior than founding other places (3F 1P or 2F 2P), and it can suckify one's early game. The gold CAN do some good, but food or production definitely does more in the long run. You could argue about Wells VS Water Wheels, but Wells are still available for Fresh Water that isn't a River.

    This is just a general thought to kill off starting imbalances: how about the Capital (only) always has 3F, 1P, 1G on flat terrain and 2F, 2P, 1G on Hills. That way, regardless of start, everyone's capital starts on an essential parity and won't brutally fall behind because of randomness. Also for Capital only - it can always make Baths regardless of whether fresh water is present or not. Those kinds of yields (and other buildings unique to terrain types APART from the Water Wheel) can be so critical to make a game's difference.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    So if I understand this correctly, this means that according to the AI:

    1:c5culture: = 1:c5science: = 1.61:c5gold: = 2.42:c5production: = 4.83:c5faith: = 4.83:c5food:
     
  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,812
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    I was really irritated, why we have added +1:c5production: to the tradition policy tree, instead simply increase each city tile by +1:c5production:, cause after that change, every ancient policy tree had now a flat hammer bonus.
    I think the game balance wouldnt be changed that much, if every city tile generates 2:c5food:2:c5production:1:c5gold:. For every city, not only the capital. It would free you from feeling forced to settle on a hill or a river with every city.

    For the bath thing. Maybe Baths/Water Mills are able to be constructed everywhere, but receive a maintenance increase, if they are not constructed on a river (+2:c5gold:). Wells could be constructed, even if your city is on a river and you may decide to go well first and replace it later with water mill.
    Thats how I understand the code.
     
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,160
    I would certainly be OK with universal yields for cities (plus anything if settled on a resource of course) - it does make settling needlessly awkward sometimes and really can grind ones game to a halt...from the beginning.

    Would the AI understand how to raze a well and rebuild it as a water wheel? I'm not sure if I'd want to impose that. You'd have to have a second building instead that has a reduced cost if a well is built and fills the yield gap between a well and a water wheel.

    Is this necessary? I mean...river cities get plenty of bonuses from the river tiles themselves. So I'm inclined to say yes: the cities themselves need not be denied anything.
     

Share This Page