Germany Changes Poll

[pineappledan]

GPT from a peace deal has a different score value than with a trade deal. I don't know how the two interact

 

[InkAxis]

GPT from a peace deal has a different score value than with a trade deal. I don't know how the two interact

Huh. Well I can't see why GPT or WC votes would be worth any more or less in a peace deal than a normal trade.

 

[LarryAR]

My problem with @pineappledan’s proposals is that it doesn’t matter whether I like or dislike the proposal. When he puts it into play, it is great and I enjoy it.

 

[black213]

It is in my eyes really weird, that the industrial power of the united Germany in industrial age, depends on trade with CS from a late medieval trade organisation.....

That's a very good point. Maybe the UB should indeed be a late era one with a similar production boost amount as the current Hanse (in perhaps a different form)? Then I would personally be okay with the other changes to Germany's toolkit.

 

[pineappledan]

updating OP with vote trading idea

Landsknecht UU can now be found in my tweaks mod (check signature)

 

[BiteInTheMark]

You're not FORCED to do anything. You can abstain from voting at all if you want.

If you found a city with china, you get the food/gold for free. If you conquer a city with france, you get the culture/production boost for free. The game didnt ask you afterwards, "hey dude... do you want now the city or the boosts? You cant have both" Its a dramatization, of course, but exactly what you propose. As Germany, you didnt get the whole bonus for free, you have to sacrifice your already lowered number of votes from your own proposal, making it more likely to fail.
The Hanse is the same, you HAVE TO send most of your trade routes to CS, else you wouldnt use your UB to its full extend. Thats odd, but didnt questioned, cause its so powerful.

That's a very good point. Maybe the UB should indeed be a late era one with a similar production boost amount as the current Hanse (in perhaps a different form)? Then I would personally be okay with the other changes to Germany's toolkit

Better the Hanse lose its demand for CS or get something else and the industrial bonus is shifted into the UA of Germany, making Germany less restrictive to a diplo victory.

 

[Stalker0]

Another way to go, as you noted diplomats are not always used. You could give Germany bonuses for using diplomats.

thst will automatically take care of vote trading and information about votes in a proactive way without having to add a bunch of stuff around it.

 

[Stalker0]

On the Panzer, late game UUs are a design space that has seen little use, which opens up a lot of possibilities. We do already have tons of UUS around the time of Tercios, so I feel like its worth trying to salvage the panzer rather than just give up on the entire concept of a civ having a late UU.

Some quicky examples:

• Menacing: Panzer's has +50% CS for the purpose of CS tribute (great in combination with Autocracy's bully tenant, for an alternate way to get CS once the realpolitik has failed.
• Blitzkrieg: All panzers heal 20 damage when you take a city. (alternate: razing speed is doubled when a panzer is present in the city)
• Retrofit: Disbanding a unit adjacent to the panzer heals it for 20 damage.
• Give it Overrun as a starting promotion.

Yes the panzer has to be really good to be worth such a late push, but that doesn't mean its impossible to stay relevant in a fun way.

 

[Recursive]

You are forced most of the time to spend all your votes for your own proposal, cause it will inevitable piss one ore more people off, what you propose.

Currently you only receive a diplomatic penalty with the civ whose proposal fails, if it fails.

Since my rework, this penalty scales based on the % of your contribution to the failure. If you only put in 1 vote and others put in 9, you'd receive the base penalty, plus 20% of the difference between the maximum penalty and the base penalty. It also decays over time, and supporting proposals will counteract its effects. However if you were the only vote you would receive 100% of the penalty.

Something I'd like to note is that this new UA has a small exploit: sell votes to a civ for the Yes side of a resolution and then vote No (also works the other way around). Regardless of the outcome you still receive the bonus.

 

[frktest]

While I do agree that Panzers come too late in the game play, I love that unit. Is it possible to move Panzer to a Social Policy, in a way like Guerrilla Fighters?

 

[Hinin]

While I do agree that Panzers come too late in the game play, I love that unit. Is it possible to move Panzer to a Social Policy, in a way like Guerrilla Fighters?

No ideology gets more than one special unit.

In the More Victory Conditions and More Ideologies project that is currently WIP, the Order ideology gains the T-34 tank as its ideology unit instead of the Guerilla (with other changes). It will have a lot of what the Panzer currently possesses (Armor Plating, additionnal CS), plus a bonus to healing (+10). It won't be unlocked earlier than the Tank, however.

In the same project, the current Panzer model becomes the default model for the Tank (since the T-34 is the current one in base VP).

Also, don't forget that Autocracy Armor units will still gain quite a strong buff from the Lightning Warfare tenet (that basically covers the Panzer thematically). The Autocracy ideology generally gives buffs to units in every domain.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I'm in favour of the proposed changes, or at least some changes of this kind. I don't have a strong view on the specifics as I don't play Germany often. I defer to those who do and/or are familiar with German history. Would be nice for Germany to feel more competitive early-mid game.

It does seem that in spite of the a number of issues with it, there is some support for keeping Panzers. So changing to be more historically appropriate/synergistic with the rest of the kit seems like the way to go.

I'd like to see the German UA kick in a little earlier to help Germany stay relevent long enough for their UB and particularly their UU come into play. The Bismark AI is somewhat agressive, but that doesn't do Germany any favours if they don't have anything to really help them win wars until later on.

 

[andersw]

New realpolitik sounds great.
The landsknecht ... I dont hate it, but it will be one of the UUs that just sit there and defend like most melee UUs that arent very early ones.
Still better than the Panzer.

 

[andersw]

Btw what is the purpose of this : "Doppelsöldner (+30% CS when attacking a unit with full health)"
A pure buff to AI germany?
As a human to attack with melee vs a unit with full health? no thank you (unless an archer or siege unit), Im not gifting my units away.
Im happy if my fortified units survive, offensive attacks at best viable when a kill is very certain.

 

[Hinin]

Btw what is the purpose of this : "Doppelsöldner (+30% CS when attacking a unit with full health)"
A pure buff to AI germany?
As a human to attack with melee vs a unit with full health? no thank you (unless an archer or siege unit), Im not gifting my units away.
Im happy if my fortified units survive, offensive attacks at best viable when a kill is very certain.

Do not forget that the unit will usually have a strong base CS advantage over other units you face in war (if you rush Guilds, you could even have the unit for the almost entire Medieval era) : this means that, with the strong bonus to attacking early on, you'll have the potential to one-shot or two-shot a lot of units.

Also, the Formation I / Formation II accumulation means +30 % CS when defending in open terrain, plus the promotions you'll take with xp. Against mounted units, the Landsknecht is a death sentence at that stage of the game.

So the best way to benefit from Doppelsödner is to rush Guilds (which contains the Hanse too so you'll usually go for it quickly anyway) and surprise your opponents with the pure difference in base CS for that era.

As for the exact reason why we chose this effect in particular, it is about theme and originality : the idea of elite soldiers in flamboyant costume wielding two-handed swords is well adapted to something related to first contact in battle (before the grind usually means the death of these men, payed doubled just because the danger was so great) ; plus, this is a SQL function that was present in the code but used by no one.

 

[pineappledan]

Btw what is the purpose of this : "Doppelsöldner (+30% CS when attacking a unit with full health)"

I attack with melee first and finish off with ranged if I don't want to move onto that tile. It's very common that I want to kill something, but don't want to advance.

Yes the panzer has to be really good to be worth such a late push, but that doesn't mean its impossible to stay relevant in a fun way.

I don't really think you're addressing the core criticism of the panzer.
The Panzer doesn't have any interesting bonuses -- its bonuses are very basic steroids -- but people don't like the panzer for reasons that are completely different from what you are suggesting as remedies.

If the problem is that late unlock units don't really work as UUs, piling on new abilities (and new code) is just lipstick on a pig.

It does seem that in spite of the a number of issues with it, there is some support for keeping Panzers.

As of writing, we are sitting at:
37 for Landsknecht vs 13 for Panzer (74% vs 26%)
37 for Landsknecht vs 17 combined 'No Landsknecht' votes (69% vs 31%)
13 for Panzer vs vs 41 combined 'No Panzer' votes (24% vs 76%)

So I don't think it's looking that great for the Panzer

Something I'd like to note is that this new UA has a small exploit: sell votes to a civ for the Yes side of a resolution and then vote No (also works the other way around). Regardless of the outcome you still receive the bonus.

I'm a bit confused by this. So are you saying that human players aren't actually bound by vote trading agreements to vote a certain way?

While I do agree that Panzers come too late in the game play, I love that unit. Is it possible to move Panzer to a Social Policy, in a way like Guerrilla Fighters?

If you're interested, this is the modmod we are talking about adding the Panzer back with. It's still in the planning phase, so feel free to weigh in and contribute your thoughts.

 

[Bromar1]

Enrico Dandolo from Venice was good in making treaties to stop trade disputes and paid for the 4th crusade, but never annexed any city states.....

Actually the fourth crusade resulted in Venice acquiring quite a bit of land:

"
The Partitio Romaniae also resulted from this conquest, and it awarded Venice three-eighths of the Byzantine Empire in accordance with an agreement drafted by the Crusaders before the fall of the empire.[48] This included a part of Constantinople near the harbor, a portion of the shoreline of the Sea of Marmara, and the city of Adrianople, among other former Byzantine possessions.[49] Dandolo was also awarded the title "lord of three-eighths of the Roman Empire", although these acquisitions only lasted until the collapse of the Latin empire in 1261
"

 

[Recursive]

I'm a bit confused by this. So are you saying that human players aren't actually bound by vote trading agreements to vote a certain way?

Only some of your votes can be sold. The ones that aren't sold can be used to vote in any way you want.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

As for the exact reason why we chose this effect in particular, it is about theme and originality : the idea of elite soldiers in flamboyant costume wielding two-handed swords is well adapted to something related to first contact in battle (before the grind usually means the death of these men, payed doubled just because the danger was so great) ; plus, this is a SQL function that was present in the code but used by no one.

Who named that promotion?
Cause of that ö in its name it looks German, but there is no word called Söder.
If they were payed twice, then "Doppelsöldner" makes much more sense, then this would mean double mercanary in German. It could be of course a oldgerman word, but I think the word is written wrong.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Yea it is supposed to be Doppelsöldner I think