Germany Changes Poll

[Phosphoraptor]

It seems a big debate is about rewards from passing each proposal encouraging gamey behaviour. Why not have rewards be based on how many votes you invested in a successfully passed/stopped proposal? Then provide partial rewards for failed ones to still incentivise hoarding votes. The rewards should include some gold to keep the trades going. Now this opens up possibilities from making a big gamble on 1 proposal you want to pass to a safer lay low and go with the flow tactic, players will always have a shot at the maximum reward without compromising bigger strategic goals. Yes there is randomness and savescum in WC and its not going away anytime soon, but Germany’s vote trading will mitigate that by giving you more control over the odds.

If we want to avoid the Netherlands UA syndrome, then go the opposite direction and reward trading votes with Germany. Something like you and Germany gaining the per vote rewards if the votes you trade to/from Germany contribute to passing/stopping a proposal. Now this encourages bloc forming with Germany to facilitate vote trading which loops back to the flavor of Bismarck’s Realpolitik. Bismarck wanted to form a bloc of european powers that would support, if not tolerate, the existence of a unified German nation which already threatened the european balance of power. In the same way a player facing a strong Germany would have to weigh the benefits of interacting with Germany’s UA or stopping his diplomatic dominance.(Bismarck’s plan fell apart when Kaiser Wilhelm II made Germany seem too strong/hostile towards european powers)

On a side note I still want the panzer to stay for its novelty as a UU, even if late game UUs belong to ideologies. Ill be sad to see it go.

 

[Stalker0]

Here is the full UA description if we incorporate the diplomat idea with the original UA change, just to see what people think.

Realpolitik: +3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Gain an embassy and open borders with civs containing your diplomat.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Here is the full UA description if we incorporate the diplomat idea with the original UA change, just to see what people think.

Realpolitik: +3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Gain an embassy and open borders with civs containing your diplomat.

Man, I like it!

It avoids the microing and guessing that extra yields from winning proposals would come with. I think that could become repetitive quickly (like Netherlands UA).
The diplomat stuff is finally one aspect of diplomacy that targets players and not city states. This fits Bismarck, whose diplomacy also focussed on great powers more than on minor ones.

Giving you a way to force open borders is unique and opens up interesting strategies. Think of diplo units, missionaries (who can also do scouting), attacking orher AIs from a safe neutral territory and sneak attacks (AIs don't ask you to remove troops from borders if they have given you open borders). The only way for the AI to stop it would be to declare war on you. Which could be exactly what you want and it would match how Bismarck provoked France to attack.

Definitely more interesting than just another minigame for a few extra yields.

 

[KlHannibal2]

The Landsknecht is in the base game too. It was moved to the Authority policy with the Brave New World expans

Fair point.

I also see your points when considering Germany without more UC and that as a sole UU, the Panzer IS late.

Did you consider switching Ulfhedinn and Panzer between base VP and more UC without changing the units? It would give the base Germany the early game boost it needs and still keep the awsome lategame power of Panzer, Teutonic Order and Hanse. Teutonic order often lets you reform early to grab glory of god. With a massive Hanse bonus, you can use science or culture (with golden age and worlds fair) processes to get massive yields from scientists and writers. Combined with the Panzer, you get one of the best late game war machines.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Emphasizing Germany's contributions to modern diplomacy (the complex diplomatic workings of the HRE and the Hanseatic League, the Peace of Westphalia, Bismarck and Realpolitik, their current stranglehold on the EU, etc.) is totally valid.

I think you have a very wrong view over the HRE. The stability of the HRE wasn't coming from great diplomacy between the inner "nations" nor the diplomacy between the HRE and other nations. All the small nations had a purpose to work together and stay in the HRE cause of the fear for pressure from the outside (french, hungarian, etc.) and more importance, even if they are only a very small principality. And not diplomacy was the major power in the Reich, instead it was the big rule set, the laws which were implemented to secure the "Landfrieden", the peace between the nation's in the Empire and the bordering nations.
At least it was till some point. The thirty year war in the mid of the 17th century is the best example for the inability of the empire to maintain that security and stability, and it was already far far earlier inable to execute any offensive actions.
Later on, when Prussia and Austria dominated the HRE, every authority of the HRE disappeared. Both were already trying to expand their territory, even at the cost of the own nations. Best shown at the peace deals with France around 1800, where Austria and Prussia accepted the occupation of HRE territory by France for the reparations in shape of annections of HRE minor nations.

I wouldn't call the hanseatic league as a very diplomatic interactive system too. The interactions happened mainly within the hanseatic league, but outside from several conflicts with Denmark or Netherlands, the main purpose of interactions outside was always driven by economic interests. Beeing able to push through your own interests by wars isn't something I would call diplomatic superior to others. The might behind the Hanse was driven by its sheer financial power, but less by its diplomatical abilities, there was not even, until very late, one man which ability or inability in diplomacy could count.

I don't think Germany is a real fitting nation for a diplomatic victory, cause other things are much more obviously. It would be interesting what @Gazebo think about that, cause as far as I can remember he is a studied historian.

What ever, the proposal has nothing to do with Realpolitik. Bismarck was able to change the world with his abilities, but beeing rewarded for voting the winning proposal with one irrelevant vote changes nothing.

And like it was already posted:
In the end everyone will save the game before the WC happens at end of turn, look what happens after the WC and then reload.

 

[pineappledan]

Did you consider switching Ulfhedinn and Panzer between base VP and more UC without changing the units?

never seriously considered that, no. The ulfhedinn is fun, but it’s a pretty weird unit. Not polished enough for prime time.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Here is the full UA description if we incorporate the diplomat idea with the original UA change, just to see what people think.

Realpolitik: +3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Gain an embassy and open borders with civs containing your diplomat.

I like the idea, but it looks a bit underwhelming.
You get even less yields from CS (no GAP) and the real usefulness of the second ability is outside from rare circumstance low.
It's of course helpful if you try to convert someone with your missionariss and don't lose any spreading power thanks to your UA, but you might get the spy in Renaissance too late to help converting key civilizations in your neighborhood.
Also, except some map types with no east-west connection, you should normally be able to reach all CS.
And using acheologists on enemy territory needs, as far as I know, an open borders treaty from both sides.

 

[azum4roll]

And using acheologists on enemy territory needs, as far as I know, an open borders treaty from both sides.

Not anymore. You just have to beware of AI archaeologists overriding yours while digging in their territory, and of course the diplomatic penalty.

 

[KlHannibal2]

never seriously considered that, no. The ulfhedinn is fun, but it’s a pretty weird unit. Not polished enough for prime time.

It is weird, but it's also strong. The converted units free up early gold and production that you can put into wonders, religion or more settlers. You can gift them to CSs to help get an early friendship or alliance. And they keep their promotions, above all embarkation, allowing you to find more ruins, barb camps, CSs and AIs. A solid early game boost for Germany.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Gaining permanent influence over CS through unit gifts sounds a bit exploitable and too powerful. I would produce 2 cheap warriors and send them to a militaristic or maritime CS and then have nearly immediately a CS friend and 30 turns later a CS ally, which pay back very soon the investments.


Instead I would suggest something different:


"Gain +1 influence with a CS for every 2 military units you place in their territory."


1. You didn't lose your units, but you still have to pay their maintenance for influence, which increase over time.

2. You are weakening your empire defense/offensive capabilities, cause those units are bound on other places

3. Limited spots to place those units, cause of small territory of CS, limiting especially very early the influence gain

4. You need at least 4 units to befriend/ally a CS, which is very early a high enough burden to gain the benefits of a CS ally

 

[Rekk]

Just give yields for each active "schmoozing" diplomats. Could just give 2 per turn, scaling with era, same as the bonus per CS ally, so 6 starting in Renaissance

This incentivized not moving diplomats around at all, and disincentivizes vote trading except with the X civs that you have them in.

My original counter proposal, instant yields on diplomat setup, is probably too far in the wrong direction, incentivizing vote trading above all else, and works against all of the other things you could be doing with diplomats and is fiddly on top of that.

I like Stalker0 embassy/open borders suggestion as a baseline.

 

[Recursive]

Gaining permanent influence over CS through unit gifts sounds a bit exploitable and too powerful. I would produce 2 cheap warriors and send them to a militaristic or maritime CS and then have nearly immediately a CS friend and 30 turns later a CS ally, which pay back very soon the investments.


Instead I would suggest something different:


"Gain +1 influence with a CS for every 2 military units you place in their territory."


1. You didn't lose your units, but you still have to pay their maintenance for influence, which increase over time.

2. You are weakening your empire defense/offensive capabilities, cause those units are bound on other places

3. Limited spots to place those units, cause of small territory of CS, limiting especially very early the influence gain

4. You need at least 4 units to befriend/ally a CS, which is very early a high enough burden to gain the benefits of a CS ally

This idea would also require the trespassing penalty not to apply. Greece already has this bonus (although it treats it as friendly territory which is a little different).

Additionally, I've seen many City-States with units on every single tile.

 

[Recursive]

Regarding the embassy/open borders idea, that's interesting, and I wouldn't mind doing the coding work for it.

However it is a situational bonus compared to 1 vote per 3 alliances. Especially if Germany is also losing the GAP, then it probably should have a buff in addition to this (if the community likes the idea).

 

[pineappledan]

Realpolitik: +3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Gain an embassy and open borders with civs containing your diplomat.

I agree with @BiteInTheMark here. By itself, this UA proposal is much weaker and less consistent than what Germany already has. Open borders and embassies can be gotten easily with a bit of gold, and for the occasional time where you have bad enough relations they won’t trade with you, how often do you actually care that much about forcing open their borders?

 

[chicorbeef]

Should we brainstorm another third component to the UA then if the yields on WC proposal isn't favoured by the community? The diplomat bonus is nice but I agree that this proposed German UA is a bit underwhelming, we're kind of back at square one.

 

[Stalker0]

Not square one. If we need to add another bonus that’s fine.

How much more do people think we need? I think it’s clear that the UB remains the carrier of the civ, so how much more oomph does the UA need?

a simple buff is adding back in the GAP bonuses. We can also look at PADs unit gifting bonuses so more

 

[amateurgamer88]

Just throwing two random ideas out there.

1. What if Great Diplomat expended gives X delegates for Y turns and expending Great Diplomats just extends Y by Z turns?
2. What if Great Diplomat expended gives 1 delegate for X turns up to a certain cap.

 

[pineappledan]

Just throwing two random ideas out there.

1. What if Great Diplomat expended gives X delegates for Y turns and expending Great Diplomats just extends Y by Z turns?
2. What if Great Diplomat expended gives 1 delegate for X turns up to a certain cap.

why say for X turns instead of just “the next vote”?

I would prefer to keep Germany away from free WC vote. One of my goals of starting this discussion was to unstack Germany from Austria, which both currently get free WC votes, and are very culturally similar.

 

[amateurgamer88]

why say for X turns instead of just “the next vote”?

The timer to when the next vote does decrease to 10 turns eventually. I don't mind if Germany gets more out of it late-game but it's just a suggestion.

As for WC votes....that kinda matters a lot! If there's a Germany and Austria in a game, how is Germany going to get more votes than Austria then? It just feels like Austria can do everything Germany and more. Maybe I'm missing something here?

 

[pineappledan]

The timer to when the next vote does decrease to 10 turns eventually. I don't mind if Germany gets more out of it late-game but it's just a suggestion.

As for WC votes....that kinda matters a lot! If there's a Germany and Austria in a game, how is Germany going to get more votes than Austria then? It just feels like Austria can do everything Germany and more. Maybe I'm missing something here?

There’s lots of diplomatic civs that don’t get extra WC votes. Siam and Greece for instance. It’s weird that the only 2 civs in the game that get extra WC votes from their UAs also happen to be the 2 Germanic ones. That’s why I have been pushing for Germany to get some other bonus to diplomacy, like an alternative source of influence.

What about this?

Realpolitik: +3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Bonuses from Cultural Influence with a Civilization are 1 level higher if you have a Diplomat with them. +1Influence per turn with City-States for every unit you have Gifted them.

influence levels boosts a few different things (more for trade routes with them, more ideological pressure, faster spies. It’s niche like forcing open borders, but more consistent, and doesn’t strongarm civs into deals they don’t want to make.