Germany halts Tom Cruise's Hitler film

[brennan]

The German government is one of those that'll arrest you for holocaust denial, I guess this is a related issue, they're a little touchy about their past.

I agree that they shouldn't interfere with freedom of speech by having such laws.

I believe Scientology is classed as a 'cult' over here - not a religion btw. It is unclear what their belief system actually is.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Wow. Its actually very convenient that governments can classify religions as "good" or "bad"

That way we can choose which religions are OK and which are not. Excellent system.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

They're both off their rockers however what I don't understand is why they're being discriminated against for their beliefs. I think taxing Scientology as the Germans have is proper however

Scientology is discriminated for the same reasons the Mafia is discriminated.
True, it is not illegal but it should be.

 

[Till]

I've heard Tom Cruise and John Travolta speak out about psychiatry and prescription drugs. They're both off their rockers however what I don't understand is why they're being discriminated against for their beliefs. I think taxing Scientology as the Germans have is proper however banning him because of his beliefs is not.

What's amazing to me is how tolerant some people around here are of certain groups but in this case you justify the government's actions.

It's a strange double standard imo...

Their beliefs on psychiatry and prescription drugs is not what gets them into trouble. That's well inside the acceptable nutball range.
The problem is their membership in an organization that is suspected to pursue unconstitutional goals.
According to the constitution (§9(2)), organizations that intend (or do) violate its principles have to be prohibited. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't change that because the mentioned paragraph is protected from being ever amended (by §79(3)).
The concept is called "Militant Democracy and i was developed as a reaction to perceived weaknesses of the Weimarer constitution. Most prominently its inability to defend itself against extremism.

 

[Whomp]

Scientology is discriminated for the same reasons the Mafia is discriminated.
True, it is not illegal but it should be.

I'm not sure I follow the logic versus the mafia when Germany is taxing the organization. There's something more to the story...this from the German embassy in the US. Maybe this explains the stance a little better.

The Federal Government has also conducted thorough studies on the Scientology organization. Expert reports and testimony by former members confirm again and again that membership can lead to psychological and physical dependency, financial ruin and even suicide.

Because of its experiences during the Nazi regime, Germany has a special responsibility to monitor the development of any extreme group within its borders -- even when the group's members are small in number. Given the indisputable evidence that the Scientology organization has repeatedly attempted to interfere with the American government and has harmed individuals within Germany, the German federal government has responded in a very measured legal fashion to the Scientology organization. On June 6, 1997, Federal and State Ministers of the Interior asked the Office for the Protection of the Constitution (Verfassungsschutz) to formally investigate several activities of the Scientology organization and make a report. The published report presented October 12, 1998, found that while "the Scientology organization agenda and activities are marked by objectives that are fundamentally and permanently directed at abolishing the free democratic basic order," additional time is needed to conclusively evaluate the Scientology organization. The ministers approved this request for more time.

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html

 

[Till]

From the Office for the Protection of the Constitution:

...The court said there was hard
intelligence that the plaintiffs were working to undermine the free
democratic order. According to the court, there existed a great number
of sources, some of which were not available to the public, from which
it could be derived that intentions were aimed at abrogating or
restricting fundamental basic and human rights, such as human
dignity, the right to free development of personality, and the right to
equality. In addition, the court said that Scientology aspired to a
society without general and fair elections.

...Hubbard described the new
Scientologist civilisation he envisaged as a legal order under which
the existence of the individual is subject to the SO's arbitrary discretion.Correspondingly, basic rights can be enjoyed only by those
people who, after selection under the auditing procedure, are
considered “honest” in the SO's view

For more info, check the link above (it's in English).

 

[Elrohir]

So Germany is refusing to let them use these sites just because Tom Cruise is a Scientologist? Would they do the same if he were Catholic or Lutheran or Muslim or Buddhist? Religious discrimination is religious discrimination. Unless Tom Cruise is publicly saying that everyone should be forcibly converted to Scientology, or something, they shouldn't be doing this.

I don't see the irony. Germany discriminates against Nazis as well. Is that wrong? Will you defend rights of the poor Nazis to spread their "faith"?

I don't think so.

Scientology is a dangerous exploitative sect which should be crushed without mercy. Good to see that at least one country understands that.

Depending on what exactly they are teaching, possibly. If they are teaching that "lesser" races should be exterminated, then of course they shouldn't. But if they are simply teaching that the Aryan race is superior to other races and should be by default in charge, then they should be allowed to teach that, even if it is ignorant, racist and stupid.

If you allow the government to decide what is a "good" belief and what is a "bad" belief, pretty soon the only belief that will be tolerated is belief in the State above all other religions or philosophies. It's called fascism guys, look it up. Ironically enough, I think Germany is slipping towards fascism in large part because of its fear of its Nazi past.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I'm not sure I follow the logic versus the mafia when Germany is taxing the organization. There's something more to the story...this from the German embassy in the US. Maybe this explains the stance a little better.
http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html

Mafia was a bad example, but the point is that Scientology is considered a threat to society and the German constitution.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

So Germany is refusing to let them use these sites just because Tom Cruise is a Scientologist? Would they do the same if he were Catholic or Lutheran or Muslim or Buddhist? Religious discrimination is religious discrimination. Unless Tom Cruise is publicly saying that everyone should be forcibly converted to Scientology, or something, they shouldn't be doing this.

I is not religious discrimination because Scientology is not a religion.
It might be a religion in the USA but it's not in Germany.

 

[luiz]

Even if Tom Cruise was personally a freakin' Nazi I still would say this is not right. As long as the movie is not making propaganda of anything, he should not be penalised for a personal belief even it is a belief in an illegal institution.

 

[Elrohir]

I is not religious discrimination because Scientology is not a religion.
It might be a religion in the USA but it's not in Germany.

Why isn't it a religion? Don't you find it the least bit worrying that the German government has the power to classify a religion as not a religion and suppress it?

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Why isn't it a religion? Don't you find it the least bit worrying that the German government has the power to classify a religion as not a religion and suppress it?

I'd find it much more worrying if they considered Scientology a genuine religion.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I'd find it much more worrying if they considered Scientology a genuine religion.

I don't think the government should be able tell people which religions are real and which ones are not. Period. Nobody can look into Tom Cruise's heart and say he doesn't TRULY believe in Scientology.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I don't think the government should be able tell people which religions are real and which ones are not. Period. Nobody can look into Tom Cruise's heart and say he doesn't TRULY believe in Scientology.

There is enough evidence that Scientology is an anti-democratic money-making-machine. This organization has repeatedly tried to bribe officials and to infiltrate governments.
It is not relevant if Tom Cruise really believes in this rubbish.
If an Islamist really believes it is the will of God to destroy democracy and create an worldwide caliphate does this make him and his ideology any better ?
I'll have to agree with Thomas Mann: Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.

 

[Phlegmak]

No one is going far enough to treat scientology.

Re-education camps should be opened to undo years of psychological manipulation and brainwashing conducted by the scientologists upon their unfortunate followers or more accurately, victims.

Hmm, that sounds familiar.

 

[Masquerouge]

I don't think the government should be able tell people which religions are real and which ones are not. Period. Nobody can look into Tom Cruise's heart and say he doesn't TRULY believe in Scientology.

I think the government should interfere when a pseudo-religion is robbing people of their money and pushing them to commit suicide.

 

[Bugfatty300]

There is enough evidence that Scientology is an anti-democratic money-making-machine. This organization has repeatedly tried to bribe officials and to infiltrate governments.
It is not relevant if Tom Cruise really believes in this rubbish.
If an Islamist really believes it is the will of God to destroy democracy and create an worldwide caliphate does this make him and his ideology any better ?
I'll have to agree with Thomas Mann: Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.

So if some Islamic extremist believes its the will of God to destroy democracy then we should label Islam as a dangerous cult and treat it as a criminal organization?

 

[Masquerouge]

So if some Islamic extremist believes its the will of God to destroy democracy then we should label Islam as a dangerous cult and treat it as a criminal organization?

You answered yourself. An Islamic extremist does not uphold the mainstream tenants of Islam.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

You answered yourself. An Islamic extremist does not uphold the mainstream tenants of Islam.

It is only extremists who show their true face. If you are an extremist terrorist you are more likely to be extremely violent. A mild one might be mildly violent. but he is still violent.

 

[Bugfatty300]

You answered yourself. An Islamic extremist does not uphold the mainstream tenants of Islam.

And the mainstream tenants of Scientology is to steal money and commit suicide?

I think the government should interfere when a pseudo-religion is robbing people of their money and pushing them to commit suicide.

What about when a religion brainwashes people and pushes them to suicide bomb crowded markets? Should the government step up and treat this whole religion like its a crime syndicate?