Germany halts Tom Cruise's Hitler film
- Thread starter Whomp
- Start date
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h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Sorry dudes, but you are wrong. Those games with Nazi themes, red blood, etc. are actually out-right banned in Germany, whereas games with girls showing off their sexy parts are merely rated M or AO by the ESRB.* AO games are still legal in the US, it is just that every major store refuses to sell them as well as all three console manufacturers refusing to license them. The end result is that you can still buy porn games in America, its just that you will have to look online and won't find any for consoles. This is of course, preferable to bans that Germany gives out.
*This is what the GTA and Oblivion controversies were, modders found parts of the game that went above the ESRB rating, which meant that the games had to be rerated. (and all future copies of those games were changed to edit out the offending titties)
*This is what the GTA and Oblivion controversies were, modders found parts of the game that went above the ESRB rating, which meant that the games had to be rerated. (and all future copies of those games were changed to edit out the offending titties)
No sorry Dude
Apart from some very rare cases where the German penal code applies (i.e. Glorifying of the Naziregime [not mere display of symbols of the Naziregime] there is no outright ban of games. The one case were this does not apply (Gloryfying of deadly violence against Humans) is still on the books, but as long as you do not use "Humans" but rather "Human-like persons" you are out of that requirement). Interestingly the violence against humans is only upheld scarce cases and lots of games that would meet this criterion are freely sold in Germany (Commando and the like). Almost all games that are called "banned" are actually "indexed". There is an Index in Germany of Games that are being deemed dangerous to the youth. Those game on the index are NOT banned. They are though not allowed to be advertised or made available to persons under the age of 18."Red Blood" falls into that category (in most cases "red blood" just leads to an age rating of 18 - those games may not be sold to persons under 18, but still openly displayed in shops and advertised). Producers usually will censor themselves in order to avoid an 18 rating or even being put on the index because this will effectively make it impossible to make a profit. This is not the same as an outright ban though.
Communisto
Condottiere
You guys are missing the point, some brave heroes have stopped Tom Cruise being in another movie. Where are the parades, the jubilant girls, The flowing wine? Who cares about free speach, we don't have to hear about that D-Bag for a while.
ori's got it right, only very extreme cases are banned in german (actually atm, I can't think of a single game that is). Most brutal games that you are adressing (like Wolfenstein 3D or the original Doom) are just put on the index. As a result they aren't allowed to advertise for them or put them on display in stores. They are only to be sold on demand to 18+ yo. It's not a ban.
it seems to me that you are slightly misinformed about the 'limit' of freedom of speech in german (or europe in general). Sure, some things are not allowed (and I actually disagree with some of these laws), but show me a country that has absolute, unlimited freedom of speech?
Furthermore you said the banning of symbols would not fly in the US, yet a lot of your countrymen seem to feel that it should be forbidden to burn a US-Flag (which in itself would be banning a symbol as well).
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Lets not forget which country beeps out the nono-words 
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
That weird, because from what I just read, it sounds like yes you guys do not have total freedom of speech and things like that get banned. (or, more likely, censored to turn the Nazi's into zombies or something equally lame)No sorry Dude
"Red Blood" falls into that category (in most cases "red blood" just leads to an age rating of 18 - those games may not be sold to persons under 18, but still openly displayed in shops and advertised). Producers usually will censor themselves in order to avoid an 18 rating or even being put on the index because this will effectively make it impossible to make a profit. This is not the same as an outright ban though.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
By Constitutional amendment, because currently it is impossible to ban flag burning as we have a right to free speech. Of course they've been trying at it for a long time, and failing too...
of course they don't have total freedom of speech, no country has.
as for the turning Nazis into zombies, that's done voluntarily by the game companies to avoid being put on the index.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Ugh 
, by total freedom of speech I mean everything but the fire in a theater type stuff.
(and also courtroom type stuff but I;d rather not talk about that since I know very little about law)
, by total freedom of speech I mean everything but the fire in a theater type stuff.(and also courtroom type stuff but I;d rather not talk about that since I know very little about law)
In fact the law on protecting the youth from depiction on violence in the media is pretty narrow: If you depict graphic violence against humans (eg nazis) you risk being indexed (if the depiction is deemed to glorify that kind of violence), if you depict graphic violence against "human like creatures" the law does not apply even if you are glorifying violence, that is the main reason for turning humans into zombies or the like, since being indexed effectively takes away any hope of profitable sales (still it is not the same as banning it
).
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
And yet "The one case were this does not apply (Gloryfying of deadly violence against Humans) is still on the books, but as long as you do not use "Humans" but rather "Human-like persons" you are out of that requirement)."
That is what I meant - and you are right, a game that glorifies violence against humans can in fact be banned in Germany. But usually it will just be indexed, because you need a court to rule a game banned and with the appeals process in German administrative courts taking years it is not a very effective way of dealing with such games. A game can be indexed IF the Gaming industries own rating agency refuses to rate that game AND the government run Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons (yes they really call themselves thus) decides to put it on the index of Media harmful to the Youth. This is not associated with having a state attorney go to court and spend years on proceedings, and thus is usually the way that is preferred.
In effect the easiest way to prevent being indexed is to have the Game industry's rating agency rate the game (even if the rating is 18+, meaning that only adults may buy it), since the above mentioned Federal Department cannot index a game that has been rated.
Regarding bans: while games (and other media) can be banned in Germany it is a rare event - and usually mere depiction of violence is not enough for anyone to bother.
I don't even negate the fact that Germany has some "interesting" limits on free speech on the books, but you have to look at the application of those laws. For instance rulings like the recent US Supreme Court decision that Free Speech essentially does not pertain to High School students (when it comes to drugs at least) would never have been possible in Germany, since that would be seen as an infringement of free speech that would be unconstitutional. What it comes down to is that while lots of Americans like to see Europe and Germany especially as limiting free speech to an insufferable extent, in fact all those countries do limit their Citizens' right to free speech to some extent, but have a different emphasize on what is not allowed or censored. Essentially while other freedoms have come under attack in Europe due to "anti-terrorism" laws, freedom of speech is thriving, and the US is certainly not better in this respect, just different - you can publicly worship Nazism but if you are a High School student and hold up a sign "Bong hits for Jesus" on a public walkway in front of a school you are in trouble...
Ugh
(and also courtroom type stuff but I;d rather not talk about that since I know very little about law)
Do you think that in "the fire in a theater type stuff", the limitation of freedom of speech is justified?
If yes, why?
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
I'm undecided on it, just as I am on libel and slander. I'd prefer that people just be arrested for the effects of shouting fire, than shouting fire itself.
So if a newspaper is showing a picture of me on page 1 telling that I am a terrorist and killed 10 people, with not a grain of evidence behind, you are not sure whether I should have the right to demand a rectification?h4ppy said:
By the way, what is your opinion about censorship of sexual content in the US? Doesn't this mean that the US have no freedom of speech?
Why limit the argument to immediate risk? Why is it not a good idea to include long term, substantive risk in the argument?
(I'm not saying that violent video games present this risk, although I agree that our kids have to be protected from certain games...).
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Correct. If no one does anything to you its not like you would have any grounds to sue. If you lose your job or get a brick thrown through your window or something because of it, by all means, go to court.
I believe that sexual content should not be censored. This is a tricky area in US law too, with several courts issuing opinions that it is legal to go around in the nude. As for television, the way the government gets around it is by saying that since whatever it is that the broadcast networks broadcast on is a public good (and they are sort of right, there are only limited amounts of it available) that they have the right to regulate it. Unfortunately there will always be Lieberman's in this country who want to destroy our freedoms, but they have so far met with less then amazing success.[/quote]
What about the non material consequences? Most probably a lot of my neighbors will avoid me now, in my associations I am not trusted anymore,... Don't you think that in the discussed case this are not only remote, but probable consequences? And stuff like that can have severe impact on the psychology of even stable persons.
In your answer you seem to admit yourself that libel and slander can have a very negative impact on the "victim". So what in your opinion are the advantages which counterweight this negative impact and should us make allowing libel and slander?
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Social consequences are no concern of the government. Health ones can be solved with a law suit.
As for slander and libel, if they have the effect of hurting a person (and I mean actual hurting, not that "my friends don't like me" crap) that person can sue and if they don't its no big deal.
talk about a derail...
As for slander and libel, if they have the effect of hurting a person (and I mean actual hurting, not that "my friends don't like me" crap) that person can sue and if they don't its no big deal.
talk about a derail...
