Germany - Rework needed?

[Wolves]

Hi there,

I don't claim to be a good civ player (have beaten diety with india 1 one time lucky, but normaly I play on Emperor), but I simply don't ge tthe point why someone, who does not seek a greater difficulty, should play Germany or Ottomans.

Do you also think that they are very underpowered or am I just totaly wrong?

Is there maybe a good guild how to play these civs the right way?

Do you think that they need a buff / rework?

Thank you in advance and sry for mistakes,
Wolves

 

[FeiLing]

Landsknechts are Pikeman at only 50% cost and the reduced maintenance costs are awesome. The barb thingy UA however is kinda lame. I don't think they're weak... you just can't go iron rush or wahtever you doing, you should go for their strengths instead which imho is a carpet of doom like army of Landsknechts and deciding the game right away. However on Deity this might not being the most advantageous time to start conquering the world.

 

[Scarpa]

Both their UAs are weak, but landschnect are nice and Jannisaries are just awesome.

 

[Pax_Romanus]

Furor Teutonicus is a great way to get cannon fodder. Once they start spawning Pikes, kill encamped, throw at nearest army. Also, those brutes do add up when going for swordsmen. Initial warrior wipes out encamped brute, now you have 2 warriors, each of them recruits another warrior, thats 4, at least get 2 more for six, upgrade to swordsmen. Germany is great for sword-rush strategies, even though they don't have a unique swordsmen. Landsknechts are just to bump up the pointy stick value, imo. They do a decent job of intimidating others into not attacking you. It's somewhat the same with the Ottomans, just for archipelago maps. I will admit that I'm probably a worse player than the OP; I've only ever really played at Prince or below, and am only now trying my hand at King level. But still, both Civ's, with the right strategy, can easily take over the world. The Ottomans UA isn't as good, but it has some use.

 

[Bamboocha]

Furror Teutonicus actually gives you two powers:
1. Convert barbarians
2. Larger army

While I think 1 is pretty good, 2 does not fit Germany at all. From the Teutonic Order to Prussia to the German Empire to the Third Reich, German armies have always been relatively small but superbly trained. The Austrians, for example, described the Prussian army as a litteral "war machine", and the SS of Nazi Germany was unmatched in their skill. The "larger army" ability would fit Russia far better, a nation that has traditionally always relied on throwing millions upon millions of men at the enemy until they give up.

The Panzers are thematic (Blitzkrieg anyone?), stronger than normal thanks and have a useful ability (extra movement) that they retain when upgraded to modern armor (I think), making them a good UU.

The landsknecht... I don't know. They're cheap, which means you can produce a lot of them, but pikemen are usually seen as inferior to (long)swordsmen.

All in all, half of the UA and one UU are pretty cool, the other half of the UA is good but unfitting, and the other UU is IMHO not all that good.

 

[Pax_Romanus]

The German military, especially the SS, had a high burnout rate during training, which is actually represented by the large army bit. Since weaker units( brutes, spears, etc.) for barbs constantly spawn, rather than having to upgrade a brute all the way up to mech infantry( which happens more than you'd think) just delete him for being unfit. Burn him out. I agree with you on the landsknechts, though. The only thing they're good for is fodder. Having 50 of them just to wear down an enemy does work, it's just a pain in the rear.

 

[Wolves]

I simply don't get teh advantage of the Landsknecht.

50% less production costs. ok, but in CiV I think that high quality is better than low strenght blobs, because of the XP system and the terrain bonus system.

Not even as a defence force, they seem viable to me.

 

[Pax_Romanus]

pointy stick and carpet of doom. thats it. The whole reason for their existence is to throw them at the enemy and pray to God something good happens. This is the unit the AI can actually use better than human players, for that reason alone.

 

[vonbach]

I simply don't get teh advantage of the Landsknecht.

There is no advantage to the Landsknecht.

They have a weak and unfluffy UA mixed with one useless UU and another thats so late
that its nearly useless. The only thing the UA is good for is getting a free army
to upgrade later. They should get a bonus to science or something instead.
Maybe a Unique building.

 

[Optional]

1/3 bigger military for the same price, that's useful.

Not necessarily Germany's ability forces you to a warmonger strategy. If your first warriors can multiply themselves by taking barb camps, it leaves your cities free to build other things; culture or wonders, if that's what you want.
In that respect it's more flexible than, say, the Egyptian ability, which does force you into one specific strategy.

An overwhelming majority here at the forums finds the Ottoman trait the worst of them all. I disagree. It's one of the poorer ones, but it's not that bad. Personally I gave a few pointers about what best to do with the Ottoman ability in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=394049.

 

[Syailendra]

Actually i won my first deity game using germany... Even deity is easy if you have 8 swordsman a few turns after you found ironworking, and it's imposible to do without furor teutonicus (and a bit of luck of course).

 

[ferzen]

Germany have 25% discount for army maintenance. This is great ability even without barbarians.

Ottomans have 66,7 % discount for navy maintenance.

 

[Wolves]

I discussed it with some friends and we come to the conclusion that the UA woudl be awesome, fluffy and not OP if you would replace it with: The Kesnik trait 50% more XP for every unit.

We found no solution to the landsknecht though.

 

[Tabarnak]

They are top 3 in multiplayer. Some guys think they are litterally the best civ.

 

[Callonia]

Landsknecht is fast to build, fluff out your forces, and has field presence, what more you want xD.

Sieze a faraway city and defend it with modest military, it will be able to look after itself rapidly enough due to landsknecht if you do it during medieval.

 

[NotSure]

I can't find much use for them unless I play at Emperor or lower, where a carpet of Landsknecht can actually accomplish something. I could see how they would be useful in MP, or maybe a strategy to tech up to Panzers quickly.

The Landsknecht is cheap to produce but so so weak. You can't upgrade them for quite some time either, and when you can upgrade it's very expensive. In fact, the upgrade is more expensive than a regular Pikeman, which makes it's "cheap to produce" aspect a little less special.

Slower speeds, larger maps, Emperor or below seems to be the area where you can reliably use their UA & Landsknecht. Second worst civ in my opinion. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

 

[KM]

In MP (especially duel) germany is one of the top tier civs. Germny can be very OP. Basicly. Get 5-6 or 7 cities. focus on producction tech to get the landsknecht as soon as possible. Then lay a carpet of doom.Put all cities to make landsknecht and just keep on doing it, even longswords wont be able to hold of when you will have like 4 of them for each longsword the opponent can produce. Only exception will be if your oponent got GW.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

Germany may not be one of the strongest civs out there, but I like them.

The sum of abbilities do lend themselves alot to going heavy into honor.
You get extra units early at a very low investment, with honor you get to upgrade them cheaply through the ages.
With lower army mentainance and less unit investment you are free to pursue early wonders or other gambits, this is really quite versatile.
I won my first immortal game with Germany.

If you have never tried a LK rush I recommend it!
Stay with only one city, get to LK early and pump them out. This is very effective. Two LK will kill a Longswordsman and both will survive.

 

[Bamboocha]

Landsknecht is fast to build, fluff out your forces, and has field presence, what more you want xD.

Sieze a faraway city and defend it with modest military, it will be able to look after itself rapidly enough due to landsknecht if you do it during medieval.

Still, I don't think the Landsknecht fits Germany. They're cheap cannon fodder, which would historically fit Russia better. The Landsknecht were swiss mercenaries, known as some of the best pikemen in Europe for their fearlessness. They were known to march into an opposing pike square without hesitation. It'd be better if the landsknecht had a cool promotion/special ability that would last after it was upgraded to riflemen. It'd be hard to keep them alive until then, but worth it.

 

[krc]

Still, I don't think the Landsknecht fits Germany. They're cheap cannon fodder, which would historically fit Russia better. The Landsknecht were swiss mercenaries, known as some of the best pikemen in Europe for their fearlessness. They were known to march into an opposing pike square without hesitation. It'd be better if the landsknecht had a cool promotion/special ability that would last after it was upgraded to riflemen. It'd be hard to keep them alive until then, but worth it.

Although modeled on the Swiss pikemen, the Wikipedia article says: "Landsknechte typically came from Swabia, Alsace, Flanders, and the Rhineland, but ultimately the regiments were made up of men from all parts of Europe." Historically, they are pretty clearly a product of the German-influenced Holy Roman Empire.