Germany vs. America

[Colonel]

Ok so this is a complete hypothetical so listen carefully... and no I am not picking on Germany or America I like both those countries it just happens that Germany position in Europe made it the perfect for this scenerio.

Ok, so in this War America is trying to invade Germany. America cant use any bases in EU countries or go threw Air space or water controled by any other country but Germany. Note Germany has roughly 370,000 troops total. The US has 1.4million troops but subtract 160,000 from that due to Iraq. Also both those numbers include Air Force and Naval Forces, Medical officers and nurses, it everybody. Also German population 18-28 years of age is a type of minute man effect as it is manditory for most to be in the military for a few years and be ready to defend Germany.

So who wins. try to aviod getting mad, this is a hypothetical.

 

[sysyphus]

Russia wins.

 

[Colonel]

Eh? I said America vs. Germany

 

[Perfection]

Everyone loses.

 

[Colonel]

Non nuclear, niether side can use them.

 

[bhsup]

Lord knows the rest of Europe would keep Germany supplied with whatever she needed in the way of supplies, so I just don't see the US pulling it off. I have no doubt we could probably take Kiel, Hamburg, basically the bulk of the Northwest, but could we hold it or advance much beyond that? Not too confident.

 

[Colonel]

All others are completely neutral, and only pre-war tradeing can take place, so only the supplies going into Germany before this could be sent in during the war. So no massive french shipment of arms.

 

[Perfection]

Non nuclear, niether side can use them.

Everyone still loses

 

[Speedo]

Hopefully the generals and admirals realise that it's a friggin' stupid thing to attempt, and call it off.

I don't know if Iceland is in the EU or not (I don't think so?) but assuming that the US could stage from Reykjavik, it might be *possible*... it's still a 1300 mile flight and an even longer voyage to the German coast. It would be difficult, to say the least. In a magical scenario where both sides kept fighting until victory and no 3rd parties get involved, I would say the US wins. Besides having a larger military to start with, we just have greater resources, methinks.

If Iceland is out of the question then it just ain't gonna happen. At best we could park carriers off of their coast and drop bombs and fire cruise missiles until both sides got sick of it. It would be a stretch, but you could probably do some bombing with B-52's, B-2's and B-1B's (you'd tack on probably 1000+ extra miles to their flight though, to dogleg north of the UK). It's just impossible to mount an invasion when you have to stage from a base 5000... 6000 miles away.

 

[RoboPig]

i agree with perfection, everyone loses in a war. diplomacy works, it is stubborness and impatience that cause war

 

[bhsup]

This thread reminds me of an alternate history book I read once. "Clash of Eagles", where Germany pulled off Operation SeaLion successfully, hopped across the atlantic and successfully took the Northeast of the USA.

 

[Meleager]

America would eventually win. Germany has no way to counter-attack and hence will be on the defencive the whole time whilst their industry is bombed into ashes. Eventually, american bombers will have done enough damage to walk right it. It would take a while though and in real life I am sure it would go nuclear exactly 3.21 seconds after the whole world declares war on the US.

 

[Israelite9191]

Everything being equal except that America can not use EU territory, America would win followed by either a quick and smart withdrawl or an Iraq-esque insurgency. Norway woudl be a much better base of operations since it is not int he EU and is much closer, also you could easily fly around Denmark (EU) and straight to Germany while from Iceland you'd be flying over some EU territory at some point. America would run a quick and fast war knocking out the major cities and industrial centers before landing along the coast and marching in from there. Germany would fall fast, but die hard.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

No European bases? The Americans couldn't take any of Germany. They would need a supply line all the way across the Atlantic to the relatively small and defendable northwestern German coast. Forget it.

 

[silver 2039]

A naval landing is impossible without a nearby base. Think of what it took to take France in D-Day then try imaginign doing that without the benefit of having England there to base from.
Impossible, the logistis would be a nightmare.

At most the US can do some Carriers and Crusie Missiles. But land invasion without nearby staging point is impossible.

Might I add that Germany's military is still tailored to resist a USSR invasion with plenty of tanks like the Leopards and such which are easily on par to the American M1A1.
So if by some miracle the US managed to land they would be pushed off pretty quickly.

 

[Verbose]

Might I add that Germany's military is still tailored to resist a USSR invasion with plenty of tanks like the Leopards and such which are easily on par to the American M1A1.
So if by some miracle the US managed to land they would be pushed off pretty quickly.

Yup, eventually the Germans would get to use that whopping huge invasion defence they built.

Whether they win/get the Americans to call the nonsense of after getting its nose bloodied is rather a question of how badly does the US want to take down Germany.

Of course the US can do it, even from across the Atlantic, but in what time frame and at what cost?
They might have to tailor some stuff to crack Germany.

 

[History_Buff]

I honestly don't think the US would have any real chance. If you look at just the numbers, the US could do it, but if you consider that following a declaration of war upon Germany, the rest of Europe would probably side with Germany, and if not, they certainly wouldn't be letting troop ships disembark or sail through thier territory. Germany would have a relatively small coastline to defend, the US would probably have a hell of a time rounding up enough ships to attack and supply with without Germany drafting almost everybody and preparing defensive lines along the North West.

 

[fing0lfin]

US could never win such war. It can't invade..and actually it won't be Germany vs US, it will be US vs EU.

 

[willemvanoranje]

If it's just Germany and the USA, then there probably won't even be actual fighting. No way that any of the EU countries will allow troops to pass their territory.. and attacking over the northsea will be really, really hard.. Denmark, Holland, Norway and England narrow the free water down a lot I think (if there is at all?)

 

[Winner]

Ok so this is a complete hypothetical so listen carefully... and no I am not picking on Germany or America I like both those countries it just happens that Germany position in Europe made it the perfect for this scenerio.

Ok, so in this War America is trying to invade Germany. America cant use any bases in EU countries or go threw Air space or water controled by any other country but Germany. Note Germany has roughly 370,000 troops total. The US has 1.4million troops but subtract 160,000 from that due to Iraq.

You're forgetting the necessary troop rotation, in fact, about three times as more soldiers are assigned to Iraq. Another tens of thousands are dipatched around the globe, with large number of them in... Germany

Also both those numbers include Air Force and Naval Forces, Medical officers and nurses, it everybody. Also German population 18-28 years of age is a type of minute man effect as it is manditory for most to be in the military for a few years and be ready to defend Germany.

So who wins. try to aviod getting mad, this is a hypothetical.

Okay, let's think about unthinkable.

US declares war on Germany. Shortly after, German airforce bomb the crap out of US bases in Germany. Commanders of these bases eventually surrender to German land forces.
US is using Keflavik airbase in Iceland to conduct air missions and move its carrier groups to the North sea. Norway is forced to provide US with naval and air bases on its territory.
German attack squadrons attack the US carrier group with Eurofighters and Tornadoes carrying air-launched stealth cruise missiles, causing major loses to the US fleet, but of course, taking huge damage as well. German advanced, silent submarines attack US ships without protection.

Few German bases are hit by US stealth bombers, but Germans are utilizing advanced technologies and Czech-supplied Věra passive radar systems to detect and destroy the unlucky F-117's and B-2's. Eventually, bombing missions in depth of German territory are canceled, because they're becoming too dangerous. Instead, US airforce operationg from surving carriers and bases in Iceland, Norway and Romania is trying to blunt the edge of German airforce and AA defences, especially along the coast, with some effect.
If the US were so stupid and attempted to invade with ground forces, they'd try to make it quick and occupy Hamburg (major German port). Unfortunatelly for the invasion force, Germans are quick in counter-attack with huge number of armored units, pushing US marines back to the sea, inflicting terrible loses to the US Naval Corps.
US then relatiate with savage bombing of the German civilian targets, killing tens of thousands of people in anticipation of German surrender.