Why should it stop? You don't get bonus for being friends with a CS if you ally it? I thought it's additiveif Germany is supposed to exercise realpolitik, and stop at whatever diplomatic level is convenient, then it should actually do that. All it does now is tradefor
Germany
- Thread starter Funak
- Start date
pineappledan
Deity
It is currently 2
2
for friends, scaling with era, and 22 for allies, scaling with era.G at some point said this was to give some "Realpolitik flair", where Germany plays pragmatically with CS diplomacy. I guess the idea is that Germany's UA should allow it to work around other civs who may have invested heavilly in 3-4 city-states.
To me, this sounds like a great idea, let Germany be the diplo civ that pushes for open doors, and wants CS allies, but is content to maintain at least friendship with many CSs instead of investing heavilly into flipping CS allies.
Germany would still want to be at least friends to get bonuses if it was additive. It's better than nothing and way easier than alliances. It's weird that sometimes it's better to not be an ally if you desperately need science
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You could change it to "1 vote per 3 friends" or something like that if you wanted to go that route.... but 1 vote for friend is crazy strong, I can maintain total friendship with all CS in my sleep with statecraft, but getting even a third of those as allies requires tremendous effort.
pineappledan
Deity
Yes, that's what I meant.
you still want to ally, because the yields that CS give, the luxuries, and the WC vote is good, but settling for .33 of a WC vote and better trade yields would feel like a better position. The current situation doesn’t really give much for friends, so I don’t think the flavor is achieved.
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
Germanies major weakness is: There is only one optimal way to play Germany, and picking that way not even guarantee its full potential of UAs.
You have to send all your trade routes to CS, to get the full potential of the Hanse, but trade routes to only friendly CS generate so terrible low yields and didnt give any normal vote, nor does it give any additional vote by Germanies UA.
So, why should I not ally CS on purpose?
In the end, you are trying to ally all CS like every other civ which is heading towards a diplomatic victory, without having any bonus to help you with allying those (like Greece or Austria).
Germany should either head for a CS trading empire (trade units cant be pillaged, more yields for trade routes to friendly/ally CS, votes for atleast friendly CS) or a diplomatic power house (cheaper diplomats, influence by trade routes, votes and yields by CS allies)....
You have to send all your trade routes to CS, to get the full potential of the Hanse, but trade routes to only friendly CS generate so terrible low yields and didnt give any normal vote, nor does it give any additional vote by Germanies UA.
So, why should I not ally CS on purpose?
In the end, you are trying to ally all CS like every other civ which is heading towards a diplomatic victory, without having any bonus to help you with allying those (like Greece or Austria).
Germany should either head for a CS trading empire (trade units cant be pillaged, more yields for trade routes to friendly/ally CS, votes for atleast friendly CS) or a diplomatic power house (cheaper diplomats, influence by trade routes, votes and yields by CS allies)....
phantomaxl1207
King
Germany: Trade Routes to friendly CS's gain the benefits as if allied.
pineappledan
Deity
Make Germany king of the Friend-Zone
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Something Germany never really was that great in (historically). But I think that would be a good change, and unique too.
And the thing I really really want to take into the UA of Germany is the inability to plunder its trade routes. Germany has shown in 2 Great wars, that a heavy blockade never was hurting its ability to continue the war effort. The code is already there from the Corporation and its very unique too.
pineappledan
Deity
I think 2, scaling with Era, Trade yields as if you are allied, and 1 WC vote for every 3 friends/allies seems perfectly suitable as a UA. It's easy to achieve, but it does take at least some effort, and Germany doesn't have any tools in his kit to help him actually gain/maintain influence like other diplo civs.
, scaling with Era, Trade yields as if you are allied, and 1 WC vote for every 3 friends/allies seems perfectly suitable as a UA. It's easy to achieve, but it does take at least some effort, and Germany doesn't have any tools in his kit to help him actually gain/maintain influence like other diplo civs.What if we add "Friendly CS don't declare war on you with their allied civ" to that? Would that be too good?I think 2
Possible stronger interpretation: CS never declare war on you; enemy Great Diplomats never take your influence with a CS below 0. This maybe comes with less focus on scaling yields.
pineappledan
Deity
if you have more influence then you are allied, so you get 1 WC vote. Germany is a friend, so he only gets 0.33 of a WC vote.
Kind of funny that Germany gets a diplomacy bonus, when it has more often than not, been diplomatically inept. And also kind of Austria's turf. I mean in both Great Wars, it got stuck with the lesser set of allies and had to carry the war effort by itself. And both times it was cut off from international trade, so the Hansa is also an odd duck.
But anyway, Austria is already enough of an issue as a diplomacy civilisation. Germany sounds like it would be just as annoying. And if both of them are in the game, neither of them would box each out. Austria would grab a bunch of allies, and Germany would have them as friends, and both would get extra votes. That is an utter tidal wave of votes for the AI to dumpster you with sanctions for daring to lead in points. The only way to counter would be to have all the city-states in an alliance, and fight Germany, so they can't have a friendship. And you can't peace out, because as soon as you make peace, they would be back to friendship most of the time, in short order.
Anyway, does Germany need to be a diplomatic civ? The Hanse could be a separate piece of kit to give it a bit of a diplomatic boost, while the UA gives focus to something else.
But anyway, Austria is already enough of an issue as a diplomacy civilisation. Germany sounds like it would be just as annoying. And if both of them are in the game, neither of them would box each out. Austria would grab a bunch of allies, and Germany would have them as friends, and both would get extra votes. That is an utter tidal wave of votes for the AI to dumpster you with sanctions for daring to lead in points. The only way to counter would be to have all the city-states in an alliance, and fight Germany, so they can't have a friendship. And you can't peace out, because as soon as you make peace, they would be back to friendship most of the time, in short order.
Anyway, does Germany need to be a diplomatic civ? The Hanse could be a separate piece of kit to give it a bit of a diplomatic boost, while the UA gives focus to something else.
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
I wouldnt call the ability to remilitarise the Rhineland and annex Austria against the contract of Versaille, annex the Memel territory and the Czech republic and vasselize Slowakia without doing one shot as an inept skill. But how would you represent such an ability in the game? Wouldnt be the former mongolian ability to annex city states by military pressence the best representation of this ability? Or maybe the ability to ask CS for a tribute, which is increasing the influence from Germany but lowering the influence from others (like the Tenet in the Autocratic Tree?)
UA/UB/UU are all from very different states of the german history. The hanse was for a short period one of the most powerful NGOs in the early stage of the holy roman empire, while the UA is more linked with Bismarck and the unique unification of the the german Kaiserreich. The Panzer as UU is connected with the Third Reich from Hitler. So, there are no real synergies, like you have with Babylon, only strong abilities linked together by focusing on statecraft and a DV.
In my opinion, the real benefits of Germany are all coming relativly late, making it a good civ for catching up. But I think its common, that early stage bonuses (like founding gold from Carthago or faith and food from Spain) are worth much more than mid to late game bonuses.
My suggestion:
The Hanse:
Change "+5%
for each trade route to a CS" to +2%/
for each trade route to a CS and +2% 
/ for internal trade routes"Panzer:
Stay as it is
UA:
Distance multiplier for trade route calculation reverted (closer trade routes gives more yields than far away trade routes)
Trade routes are always one step more effecive as they normally would do (This works for influence levels over other civs, for CS friendly/allied status and for the era multiplier of internal trade routes; can exceed the normal maximum)
Gain +1
// for each friendly CS and +1//// for allied CS in capital, scaling with era
Hinin
Agnostophile
Not talking about the UA here, but I wanted to know if anyone would be interested in changing the German UU ? As it stands now, it has basically no impact at all on the gameplay of the civ : the only way it can be used is for offensive warfare in the final turns of the game, and it has no synergy at all with any aspect of the civ.
On the other hand, having the Landsknecht, a 15-16th century unit, as a mercenary Pikeman (so early medieval) is also a bit wrong.
So the idea would be to make the Landsknecht the German UU (as it was in base Civ V), but as a early Tercio, and replace the current medieval mercenary with Free Companies (much less associated with one culture in particular, less anachronistic to early medieval warfare and still able to have the bonuses the current iteration of the Landsknecht has).
The idea for unlocking the unit at Guilds (thematic reasons aside) would be to bolster the civ's ability to focus on the upper half of the tree during the Medieval era and so not fall behind in term of diplomacy (Civil Service in particular is important for that), which is crucial for the civ during the midgame.
As for the Free Company, it would have the same unit caracteristics as the current Landsknecht. Maybe replacing Formation I with Trailblazer I would be interesting (to show how these mercenary bands weren't very organized, but still very capable, and a nightmare in rural areas) ?
In any case, I can work on some dds files to make a 3d model for a Free Company unit (and look for some art).
Would you be interested ?
On the other hand, having the Landsknecht, a 15-16th century unit, as a mercenary Pikeman (so early medieval) is also a bit wrong.
So the idea would be to make the Landsknecht the German UU (as it was in base Civ V), but as a early Tercio, and replace the current medieval mercenary with Free Companies (much less associated with one culture in particular, less anachronistic to early medieval warfare and still able to have the bonuses the current iteration of the Landsknecht has).
Spoiler Example / Early idea :
CState by 5 % (max. : - 30 %) and can move immediatly when bought with 
CS (instead of 25)The idea for unlocking the unit at Guilds (thematic reasons aside) would be to bolster the civ's ability to focus on the upper half of the tree during the Medieval era and so not fall behind in term of diplomacy (Civil Service in particular is important for that), which is crucial for the civ during the midgame.
As for the Free Company, it would have the same unit caracteristics as the current Landsknecht. Maybe replacing Formation I with Trailblazer I would be interesting (to show how these mercenary bands weren't very organized, but still very capable, and a nightmare in rural areas) ?
In any case, I can work on some dds files to make a 3d model for a Free Company unit (and look for some art).
Would you be interested ?
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The rest of it is fine, but I really wouldn't give them Trailblazer. That's way too much free movement, and they would get access to the rest of the scout tree. There isn't really anything making mercenaries a nightmare in rural areas, or particularly fast moving. And some bands were very well organised.
They should get No Movement Cost to Pillage, and maybe something else.
Hinin
Agnostophile
Nope, they wouldn't. One of my early ideas for the Ainu mod was to give non-Reco units access to the reco promotion tree, and it wasn't working. If that was the case, I wouldn't have suggested that of course.
Yes, but these were very specific mercenary bands (like the White Company). Most were veteran soldiers turned looters, with a variety of skill but not much in term of organization. That still made them terrifying when not dealth with quickly : the south-western areas of France were totally ruined by these bands during the Hundred Years War.
So of course they would have No Cost for Pillage (doesn't the mercenary Landsknecht already have that ?).
