Getting started at Monarch

[tjs282]

I wanted to go on the offensive and pillage their resources and improvements, It's just that I couldn't at this point I had to protect the border city and It had barely enough units I also putted a wall and barracks, now that I think about it perhaps I should just left my others cities undefended with only a horseman and put all my military might in the border city to push for the iron.

Yes, those screenshots you posted (and doing it like this was fine, by the way) do put a slightly different complexion on the situation you described earlier.

When you roll a really cold, stringy, 'fjord-y' (80% water?) map like that, so that most/all of your cities end up being coastal (this problem is particular prevalent on Tiny/Small maps -- another reason to go Standard or Large-r), it does become more problematic/expensive to defend them all, since you have so many different points where the AI might be tempted to drop off boat-borne units. But if you found at C-x-x-C — as you did — and have, say, 1 Spear plus (at least) one A>=2 attack-unit in all neighbouring cities, then no matter where the AI-units show up, neighbouring towns can all defend/ reinforce one another on the same turn. And if you have Horses, those reinforcements could travel from up to 5-6 tiles (i.e. 2 towns) away. Finally, under Depotism, 2 units per town represents only half your free-unit allowance, leaving lots of 'slots' free for additional attackers — or Workers

Spoiler Another neat trick... :

The AI knows where all your (visible) units are, at all times, so if all your towns are equally well-defended, it's still a crapshoot to guess where the AI is going to show up (it likes Lux- and Strat-resource towns though). So something (else) you might want to consider for your next game(s), and especially if you ever roll another map like that, is the 'bait-city' trick, which basically allows you to 'tell' the AI where you would 'prefer' to be invaded!

By garrisoning all your coastal/border towns with (at least) one unit, but leaving an inland town ungarrisoned (if possible), this 'bait-town' will then act as an AI-unit magnet (instead of that coastal Mountain!): and it will tend to drop off all its seaborne invasion-forces outside that one town. Then all you need to do is to keep sufficient spare attackers/bombardiers (depending on your enemy's naval-transport capability) nearby but not in that town, to injure/kill all the landed units before they can attack your town(s) or pillage your tiles. Looking at your screenies, Nagoya is/was pretty much an ideal candidate for this trick: with its 'defenders' stationed on the adjacent Hills, you would have 'encouraged' the AI to (sail a long way, just to) land its units on the Tundra, where they get no real defensive bonus.

Spoiler Regarding chokepoints :

Controlling chokepoints is good, but it's not always preferable to block them off completely, because the AI then just bypasses them by sea (although it does suck more at this, you may then be back in the situation where you can't be sure where it's going to drop its units). With reference to the above, if you have a town near but not blocking a chokepoint, with Walls (or Pop>6) plus multiple garrisons/bombardment-units, but you have another (bait-)town beyond it, then the AI will generally bypass the choke-town in favour of going after the softer target — even though it will take longer to get there, and take harassment all the way — but crucially, it will send all its units by land, allowing you to ping them with your Cats/Trebs, and then pick them off with your Archers/Horsemen as they (try to) retreat.

It's also not a good idea to build Fortresses/Barricades directly adjacent to your own (chokepoint-)towns, if you can possibly avoid it! As a general rule, I don't build Fortresses (or Barricades), but if/when I have the occasion to do so (or to steal one from the AI), I leave at least one tile between it and my nearest town (C-x-F/B) for 2 reasons: (1) Fortresses give Zone-of-Control to all units stationed there, so AI-units trying to bypass them get injured on the way in (and out); and (2) if I have extremely bad luck and lose that strongpoint, the AI units will still have to cross open ground before they can attack my town (rather than being able to attack directly from the Fortress).

Given the terrain shown in your screenies, I haven't got any major criticisms of your city placement, apart from Yokohama (/Sapporo): in an area that will be otherwise be chronically food-poor until Electricity, Yoko looks to be built on a Grassland(?), which would have given you another 2 food prior to any improvement. I think I would just have founded 1 town to get the Gems, rather than both (though I also prefer not to found next to coastal Mountains if I can avoid it, since those tiles tend to act as AI-invasion magnets). Also, I think I would have founded towns on the Gold/Incense-Hills, rather than directly between them (Nagoya can never grow bigger than Pop2 where it is).

Spoiler That was the good cop, now here's the bad cop... :

Your terrain-improvement and building-assignment schedules leave a lot to be desired, though. Irrigating Grass (without Wheat or Cows) is not usually a good idea, especially non-shieldGrass tiles, and especially if you started doing that while still under Despotism: Grass-tiles should almost always be mined in the early game, because (under Despotism) you'll still only get the 2 food per turn from it, so you might as well get a shield at the same time (I try to get at least 1 shield per worked tile in the early game, and preferably 2). Once you go to Republic, you might want to consider irrigating some shieldGrass-tiles, because that way you still harvest a shield per tile, while getting faster growth.

Under Republic, getting your towns — especially core-towns — to Pop7 or more should always be highest priority, to prevent your economy from getting tanked by excess unit-support costs. So WHY is Ise stalled at Pop5 (despite its Harbour)?!? It's a core-town, with massive (water-trade) commerce-potential, so it needs an Aqueduct + Lib and/or Market, to take advantage of that; conversely, its shield-potential is minimal, so it certainly doesn't need a Barracks! Kagoshima should also have got an Aqueduct and Pop12 long since (with its Grass-tiles mass-mined not irrigated! How much food is it wasting?!). Sapporo needs a Harbour to grow (and possibly also a Courthouse), to make it worth even thinking about building a Lib there (I don't usually bother building Libs before Pop5-6 in any town). And you control 3 Luxes, so you shouldn't need any Temples anywhere to keep order (Marketplaces would have given you the same Happiness, but earned you income at TAX%=80, instead of costing you!).

Also, it is generally a bad idea to tie up all your towns with building improvements simultaneously, especially when a war is imminent (e.g. no more free space on your Continent left to Settle) — or already happening! Because when war breaks out, you'll start losing units (even the best-conducted campaigns have casualties), and if you haven't got enough gold to rush the remaining shields on all those builds-in-progress, you will then face a choice of 'waste shields everywhere by switching to unit-production, or start losing ground/towns' — which is actually no choice at all, since your towns are always much more valuable than any shield-wastage. That doesn't make eating all that wastage any less painful, though (and you'll have to start the project(s) all over again after the war's over).

So it's usually better to keep most (Barracks-)towns building (attack)-units, and only if you're approaching your unit-maintenance limits, then fit your (useful!) buildings into the schedule, a couple of towns at a time, ideally starting with the cheapest (needed!) improvements in your most important towns. That way, when war breaks out you should have plenty of towns available to switch over to (or continue) producing a constant stream of replacement units immediately, with minimal wastage — and you're more likely to be able to keep those towns in the first place!

 

[Takhisis]

I also like your idea about giving the city to another AI as a buffer zone .

Only if the war is already lost. One day you'll want to reclaim that city.

 

[GeneralAchilles]

Yes, those screenshots you posted (and doing it like this was fine, by the way) do put a slightly different complexion on the situation you described earlier.

When you roll a really cold, stringy, 'fjord-y' (80% water?) map like that, so that most/all of your cities end up being coastal (this problem is particular prevalent on Tiny/Small maps -- another reason to go Standard or Large-r), it does become more problematic/expensive to defend them all, since you have so many different points where the AI might be tempted to drop off boat-borne units. But if you found at C-x-x-C — as you did — and have, say, 1 Spear plus (at least) one A>=2 attack-unit in all neighbouring cities, then no matter where the AI-units show up, neighbouring towns can all defend/ reinforce one another on the same turn. And if you have Horses, those reinforcements could travel from up to 5-6 tiles (i.e. 2 towns) away. Finally, under Depotism, 2 units per town represents only half your free-unit allowance, leaving lots of 'slots' free for additional attackers — or Workers

Spoiler Another neat trick... :

The AI knows where all your (visible) units are, at all times, so if all your towns are equally well-defended, it's still a crapshoot to guess where the AI is going to show up (it likes Lux- and Strat-resource towns though). So something (else) you might want to consider for your next game(s), and especially if you ever roll another map like that, is the 'bait-city' trick, which basically allows you to 'tell' the AI where you would 'prefer' to be invaded!

By garrisoning all your coastal/border towns with (at least) one unit, but leaving an inland town ungarrisoned (if possible), this 'bait-town' will then act as an AI-unit magnet (instead of that coastal Mountain!): and it will tend to drop off all its seaborne invasion-forces outside that one town. Then all you need to do is to keep sufficient spare attackers/bombardiers (depending on your enemy's naval-transport capability) nearby but not in that town, to injure/kill all the landed units before they can attack your town(s) or pillage your tiles. Looking at your screenies, Nagoya is/was pretty much an ideal candidate for this trick: with its 'defenders' stationed on the adjacent Hills, you would have 'encouraged' the AI to (sail a long way, just to) land its units on the Tundra, where they get no real defensive bonus.

Spoiler Regarding chokepoints :

Controlling chokepoints is good, but it's not always preferable to block them off completely, because the AI then just bypasses them by sea (although it does suck more at this, you may then be back in the situation where you can't be sure where it's going to drop its units). With reference to the above, if you have a town near but not blocking a chokepoint, with Walls (or Pop>6) plus multiple garrisons/bombardment-units, but you have another (bait-)town beyond it, then the AI will generally bypass the choke-town in favour of going after the softer target — even though it will take longer to get there, and take harassment all the way — but crucially, it will send all its units by land, allowing you to ping them with your Cats/Trebs, and then pick them off with your Archers/Horsemen as they (try to) retreat.

It's also not a good idea to build Fortresses/Barricades directly adjacent to your own (chokepoint-)towns, if you can possibly avoid it! As a general rule, I don't build Fortresses (or Barricades), but if/when I have the occasion to do so (or to steal one from the AI), I leave at least one tile between it and my nearest town (C-x-F/B) for 2 reasons: (1) Fortresses give Zone-of-Control to all units stationed there, so AI-units trying to bypass them get injured on the way in (and out); and (2) if I have extremely bad luck and lose that strongpoint, the AI units will still have to cross open ground before they can attack my town (rather than being able to attack directly from the Fortress).

Given the terrain shown in your screenies, I haven't got any major criticisms of your city placement, apart from Yokohama (/Sapporo): in an area that will be otherwise be chronically food-poor until Electricity, Yoko looks to be built on a Grassland(?), which would have given you another 2 food prior to any improvement. I think I would just have founded 1 town to get the Gems, rather than both (though I also prefer not to found next to coastal Mountains if I can avoid it, since those tiles tend to act as AI-invasion magnets). Also, I think I would have founded towns on the Gold/Incense-Hills, rather than directly between them (Nagoya can never grow bigger than Pop2 where it is).

Spoiler That was the good cop, now here's the bad cop... :

Your terrain-improvement and building-assignment schedules leave a lot to be desired, though. Irrigating Grass (without Wheat or Cows) is not usually a good idea, especially non-shieldGrass tiles, and especially if you started doing that while still under Despotism: Grass-tiles should almost always be mined in the early game, because (under Despotism) you'll still only get the 2 food per turn from it, so you might as well get a shield at the same time (I try to get at least 1 shield per worked tile in the early game, and preferably 2). Once you go to Republic, you might want to consider irrigating some shieldGrass-tiles, because that way you still harvest a shield per tile, while getting faster growth.

Under Republic, getting your towns — especially core-towns — to Pop7 or more should always be highest priority, to prevent your economy from getting tanked by excess unit-support costs. So WHY is Ise stalled at Pop5 (despite its Harbour)?!? It's a core-town, with massive (water-trade) commerce-potential, so it needs an Aqueduct + Lib and/or Market, to take advantage of that; conversely, its shield-potential is minimal, so it certainly doesn't need a Barracks! Kagoshima should also have got an Aqueduct and Pop12 long since (with its Grass-tiles mass-mined not irrigated! How much food is it wasting?!). Sapporo needs a Harbour to grow (and possibly also a Courthouse), to make it worth even thinking about building a Lib there (I don't usually bother building Libs before Pop5-6 in any town). And you control 3 Luxes, so you shouldn't need any Temples anywhere to keep order (Marketplaces would have given you the same Happiness, but earned you income at TAX%=80, instead of costing you!).

Also, it is generally a bad idea to tie up all your towns with building improvements simultaneously, especially when a war is imminent (e.g. no more free space on your Continent left to Settle) — or already happening! Because when war breaks out, you'll start losing units (even the best-conducted campaigns have casualties), and if you haven't got enough gold to rush the remaining shields on all those builds-in-progress, you will then face a choice of 'waste shields everywhere by switching to unit-production, or start losing ground/towns' — which is actually no choice at all, since your towns are always much more valuable than any shield-wastage. That doesn't make eating all that wastage any less painful, though (and you'll have to start the project(s) all over again after the war's over).

So it's usually better to keep most (Barracks-)towns building (attack)-units, and only if you're approaching your unit-maintenance limits, then fit your (useful!) buildings into the schedule, a couple of towns at a time, ideally starting with the cheapest (needed!) improvements in your most important towns. That way, when war breaks out you should have plenty of towns available to switch over to (or continue) producing a constant stream of replacement units immediately, with minimal wastage — and you're more likely to be able to keep those towns in the first place!

Yes I created a tiny 80% water map with cold weather because I believed it would make the game faster thanks to the less settling thing and about the cold weather I put it to see how It would be like (first time putting this setting).

I understood the whole barricade problem when the AI conquered the tiles and made it harder for me to kill his units (correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I should still have put a barricade on the hill to control it).

Accepting critism is a good thing! I took note from the tips you gave me and from now on I will micromanage better my cities depending on the area and the resources I got.

About the whole mining everything to tell the truth I watched a tread before playing my current game Monarch standard random everything else I ended on a archipelago map and I play as the vikings. I did mine all the grasslands and did a tighter oxxo build (at least for most), however my cities won't grow above 6 (I have two cities at 12growth for wonders) and if I put aquadects most of them will go to 8 is it worth it? I also focused more on science and economy going for republic after settling the war with the Portuguese my island rivals using monarchy (after trading techs and making contact with other civs of course). I had the headstart on science triggering a golden and scientific age shortly after and making money from other AIs.

Also I still have a bigger army then the other civs I made a bad move making statue of Zeus (not that it kills my economy) and unfortunately I forgot to save and so I lost some improvements, some deals and 2 of my 3 wonders Jach's Cathedral and Sistine Chape (originaly wanted to go for those three Sun zu's academy, Leornado's workshop because I have many "outdated units" and I also lost Coppernicu's Observatory) I am putting some pictures again because I wish for some guidence on my city improvement's.

(Note: because I lost my save file I can still go for Leornado's workshop and Coppernicu's obsevatory instead of sistine and Jach of course).

The above are all my cities (vikings) and there is also one celt city which I am not razing because we are at good terms fighting against the Incas and trade alot together.

My military consist of: 13 workers (should I convert or disband some?), 8 warriors, 7 archers, 7 spearmen, 3 horsemen and 3 galleys (need more of those), 21 ancient cavalry (5/6 of them are veteran) and 1 curragh (had more and gave me a headstart on making deals). I have solid resources stealing the iron resource early on from the Portugueset thanks to having horses while they didn't and I have access to saltpeter. My luxuries resources consist of 3 ivorys, 3 furs and I import 1 fine wine and 1 fine dye.

Also it's important to mention I did not make the forgotten palace (I know you told me to make it before I go to medieval ages) I don't know where to place it and also I have not gotten the whole timing thing, forgot to mention that I also stole the Colossus from the Portuguese but suffers great corruption.

 

[tjs282]

I understood the whole barricade problem when the AI conquered the tiles and made it harder for me to kill his units (correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I should still have put a barricade on the hill to control it).

You only control the Barricaded tile if you have units stationed on it. Simply stopping the AI-units in their tracks on the Barricade-tile is not helpful, since it's then that much harder to kill them. But if you have YourCity-YourTile-FortTile-AITile, then the AI's Knights (may) take damage as they pass the Fort, and are then forced to stop between the Fort and YourCity, where you can ping them from both directions. (If you're at war anyway, there's no reason -- apart from the War Weariness -- why your units shouldn't be holding a Fort just outside your border; if you build a Lib in YourCity, your borders will expand over the Fort after 4 turns anyway...)

I did mine all the grasslands and did a tighter oxxo build (at least for most), however my cities won't grow above 6 (I have two cities at 12growth for wonders) and if I put aquadects most of them will go to 8 is it worth it?

Yes, YES, a thousand times yes! As a Republic, you only get 1 free unit per Town -- but you get 3 free units per City, so all your dry core-towns should have 'Ducts, even if they can only get to Pop8: 20 Pop7+ Core-Cities = 60 free units, not to mention making extra gold per turn in commerce. And while some of your placement in the above screenies does seem a little tight (Karistad, Batsfjord and Fauske for example; Odense really should have been placed 1NW, making it coastal; and Oslo should be coastal too...), I'm pretty sure you could get most/all your Coastal towns up to Pop10 at least (once they have Ducts and Harbours, and a Lib if necessary to pop out the border over some more sea-tiles)

Also I still have a bigger army then the other civs I made a bad move making statue of Zeus (not that it kills my economy)

If you have Ivory on your territory, then building SoZ is not (always) a bad move, since Lux-clustering rules means that if you get the Ivory, you're pretty much guaranteed to get the Wonder, and it lets you build up a decent Ancient-Age military while concentrating on (useful!) buildings in your towns. It's murderously good on a Pangaea map, since it can last quite a long time, but only has any utility on an Archi-map if you also build (lots of) ships to carry your ACavs overseas...

My military consist of: 13 workers (should I convert or disband some?)

NO!

8 warriors,

You've got the bling to upgrade these guys to MedInf, but I'd rather suggest disbanding them, and saving your cash for...

7 archers,

...These guys! They could be Berzerks by now! I mean, you're playing as the Vikings, on an Archi-map, and you're into the late Middle Age, but you have built no Berzerks yet? Not one?!? You could have been raping and pillaging the entire map for half an Age already!!! I have no words...!

No, wait, yes I do: check out the 'Going on The Pill-age' link in my signature. This is an Emperor-level succession-game on a Std-size 60% Archi-map, as the Vikings, which we won by Domination in 910 AD...

7 spearmen,

And these guys should be Pikemen!

3 horsemen and 3 galleys (need more of those)

Oh hell yeah -- well that is, right now you really need more Caravels!

21 ancient cavalry (5/6 of them are veteran) and 1 curragh (had more and gave me a headstart on making deals)

I have solid resources stealing the iron resource early on from the Portugueset thanks to having horses while they didn't and I have access to saltpeter. My luxuries resources consist of 3 ivorys, 3 furs and I import 1 fine wine and 1 fine dye.

Good work on the early contacts and trading, but you shouldn't need to import those Luxes. Just (build some 'Zerks and) go and take them!

Also it's important to mention I did not make the forgotten palace (I know you told me to make it before I go to medieval ages) I don't know where to place it and also I have not gotten the whole timing thing, forgot to mention that I also stole the Colossus from the Portuguese but suffers great corruption.

You've spent all those shields on Wonders, but not built your FP yet?!? There was a great article here on CFC once, called "The Four Rules of Wonder addiction", written by user @Ision, which I would recommend that you go and read, like, last week -- if only I could actually find it (yet another link which appears to have been broken by the forum-software change last year...).

EDIT: Found it! Here it is! And it wouldn't hurt to read the rest of the Civ3 War Academy articles as well while you're there -- much more concise than my Walls'O'Text...

Build your FP ASAP, stat, right now, doesn't really matter where. If you'd got a spare Great Leader, then you could rush it in the ex-Portuguese(? Did you mean Dutch? I can't see any Portie-Town names on your screenies) Colossus-town, but as things stand right now, I'd just change your SisChap build in Bergen. No, even better -- the Cathedral-build in Aarhus -- it's stuck at Pop6 fer cryin' out loud! With 4 Luxes it shouldn't even need a Temple yet (or at all)! (But it does need a 'Duct!)

 

[GeneralAchilles]

You only control the Barricaded tile if you have units stationed on it. Simply stopping the AI-units in their tracks on the Barricade-tile is not helpful, since it's then that much harder to kill them. But if you have YourCity-YourTile-FortTile-AITile, then the AI's Knights (may) take damage as they pass the Fort, and are then forced to stop between the Fort and YourCity, where you can ping them from both directions. (If you're at war anyway, there's no reason -- apart from the War Weariness -- why your units shouldn't be holding a Fort just outside your border; if you build a Lib in YourCity, your borders will expand over the Fort after 4 turns anyway...)Yes, YES, a thousand times yes! As a Republic, you only get 1 free unit per Town -- but you get 3 free units per City, so all your dry core-towns should have 'Ducts, even if they can only get to Pop8: 20 Pop7+ Core-Cities = 60 free units, not to mention making extra gold per turn in commerce. And while some of your placement in the above screenies does seem a little tight (Karistad, Batsfjord and Fauske for example, and Odense really should have been placed 1NW, making it coastal), I'm pretty sure you could get most/all your Coastal towns up to Pop10 at least (once they have Ducts and Harbours, and a Lib if necessary to pop out the border over some more sea-tiles)
If you have Ivory on your territory, then building SoZ is not (always) a bad move, since Lux-clustering rules means that if you get the Ivory, you're pretty much guaranteed to get the Wonder, and it lets you build up a decent Ancient-Age military while concentrating on (useful!) buildings in your towns. It's murderously good on a Pangaea map, since it can last quite a long time, but only has any utility on an Archi-map if you also build (lots of) ships to carry your ACavs overseas...
NO!If you haven't got the bling to upgrade these guys to MedInf, then I'd suggest disbanding them, rather than your Workers!And these guys should be Berzerks by now! I mean, you're playing as the Vikings, on an Archi-map, and you're into the late Middle Age, but you have built no Berzerks yet? Not one?!? You could have been raping and pillaging the entire map for half an Age already!!! I have no words...!And these guys should be Pikemen!Oh hell yeah -- well that is, right now you really need more Caravels!
Good work on the early contacts and trading, but you shouldn't need to import those Luxes. Just (build some 'Zerks and) go and take them!
You've spent all those shields on Wonders, but not built your FP yet?!? There was a great article here on CFC once, called "The 4 rules of Wonder addiction", written by user @Ision, which I would recommend that you go and read, like, last week -- if only I could actually find it (yet another link which appears to have been broken by the forum-software change last year...).

Build your FP ASAP, stat, right now, doesn't really matter where. If you'd got a spare Great Leader, then you could rush it in the ex-Portuguese(? Did you mean Dutch? I can't see any Portie-Town names on your screenies) Colossus-town, but as things stand right now, I'd just change your SisChap build in Bergen. No, even better -- the Cathedral-build in Aarhus -- it's stuck at Pop6 fer cryin' out loud! With 4 Luxes it shouldn't even need a Temple yet (or at all)! (But it does need a 'Duct!)

Okay thanks for the help! I will go put my FP in Aarhus, start building ships and upgrade my units first the archers and I will also put aquadects.
I have read the article you mentioned as I have many others for war academy, but I really need to reread them as I can't just learn everything from the first read.
I reread the war academy article you posted and I am on the process of reading your Going on the Pill-age link however it will take a while.
And yes they were probably Netherlands not Portuguese .

 

[r16]

ı tend to play only one scenario these days , considering the game engine is not "diversified" enough to make justice to what could be done in regards to tanks and planes . Hence , later in the game ı load a couple of my ships with Marine equivalents , already loaded into armies if possible and start taking coastal towns . Every town should be retaken so the entire army of AI marches . And before it manages to attack me , ı gift the city to a different AI . Take care that any units left in the city will return to own capital , which might be benefitably be a shore city , so that your ships will return , too . Or better you might load any available unit to your transports before gifting and take another town . Compared to the mobility of that , a possibility of tresspassing and war is a secondary option , but ı would welcome that gladly .

 

[GeneralAchilles]

Should I make frigates to protect my galleys (don't have oil for the moment)?
Edit: Actually I could really need some advice for my next moves here. I am ahead in science by at least 3 from the other civs, I need oil and waged two wars with America (I also needed coal which I took 2 from them). America has two cities in the contient with the oil and I have 3, however my cities aren't as productive as his due to corruption. I couldn't get the oil because he had frigates with his galleys and sinked two galleys of mine full with berserks (I am preparing one with marine units as of now). I ultimately sued for peace with America (not enough units and war wearingness was kicking in even though I had universal suffrage) and moved some of my forces there to later possess his cities (lost some to privateers). The Iroguois then landed on my island and I told him to remove his forces and he declared war (Iroguois is the biggest civ with better military and land than me but I am having greater economy and better tecnology which I can't take to it's full advantage without oil...).
Should I mass produce marines to go on the offensive and frigates to protect?
Also should I put my goverment (republic) to war-time maybe change it to more war flexible gov like commie or monarchy?
Should I make an alliance with the Celts against Iroguois (they demand tech)?
I will also post the save file (fixed the problem of not finding it) if you guys want to get a better picture of it.

 

[tjs282]

Should I make frigates to protect my galleys (don't have oil for the moment)?
Edit: Actually I could really need some advice for my next moves here. I am ahead in science by at least 3 from the other civs, I need oil and waged two wars with America (I also needed coal which I took 2 from them). America has two cities in the contient with the oil and I have 3, however my cities aren't as productive as his due to corruption. I couldn't get the oil because he had frigates with his galleys and sinked two galleys of mine full with berserks (I am preparing one with marine units as of now). I ultimately sued for peace with America (not enough units and war wearingness was kicking in even though I had universal suffrage) and moved some of my forces there to later possess his cities (lost some to privateers). The Iroguois then landed on my island and I told him to remove his forces and he declared war (Iroguois is the biggest civ with better military and land than me but I am having greater economy and better tecnology which I can't take to it's full advantage without oil...).
Should I mass produce marines to go on the offensive and frigates to protect?
Also should I put my goverment (republic) to war-time maybe change it to more war flexible gov like commie or monarchy?
Should I make an alliance with the Celts against Iroguois (they demand tech)?
I will also post the save file (fixed the problem of not finding it) if you guys want to get a better picture of it.

I wrote a massive post before looking at your save, then looked at it and dumped my first text and wrote a second, and then lost that one when CFC kicked me out without telling me

The TLDR bullet-point version:

• Judging from your apparent lack of (town)planning, you seem to have started this game without an end-goal in mind, and hence no coherent strategy to reach it
• Failing to understand what the various buildings do (or don't do), and when you need them (or not) is why your core is not nearly as productive as it could/should be at this (quite late) stage in the game
• You are not trading any goods to the AI! If you have excess stuff you don't need, trade it for something you can use!
• You are building lots of things you don't need, instead of things you do need, and you are still wasting buckets and buckets of shields on stuff that doesn't really help you (like Universal Suffrage, possibly the most worthless shield-suck in the game)
• Don't use Specialists in your core unless absolutely necessary, and put them back to work as soon as you can!
  
• DON'T revolt while you're at war in the late game! Anarchy can last up to 9 turns for non-Religious Civs: that's 9 turns when you can't build or research anything...
• Similarly, Mobilising should ideally be used after you've got needed improvements built, to build up your military before a war, rather than in response to one (Mobilising cuts down your build-options to just units and 'militaristic' buildings, and stops as soon as your peace/war status changes)
  
• If you want to fight the Iros, pick your targets (and your Allies!) carefully
  
• Despite any current 'problems' with your game, you can still win, if you remedy them. Culture's unlikely at this stage, but Conquest, Domination, Diplo or Space should all still be feasible, depending on what you want to do.

And a friendly suggestion: It occurred to me today that the 'Quick Answers/Newbie Questions' thread isn't really the best place to ask for detailed critique of your own personal playstyle/ weaknesses. If you send a private message to a Mod (via the 'Inbox' button next to your Username above), they can move/merge your posts and our answers from here into a separate thread, called e.g. 'Getting started at Monarch' and we can continue the conversation there.

 

[Lanzelot]

Moderator Action: Hi, as GeneralAchilles requested. I have created a separate thread for this discussion.
~ Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

tjs282, Takhisis, CKS and r16 already did a good job at laying their fingers into your weak spots, but there are a few more points I'd like to add here:

I made a lot more spearmen than archers, some horsemen

My predecessors already pointed out, that you don't need so many defenders. I want to go even one step further and give the following drastic advice: on Monarch level you don't need any of them... If you have horses, it's much better to build a couple of horsemen, station them on roads in a central place, from where they can react to any potential critical situation. This defends as well as a "static" defence by spearmen, and on top of that: once you go on the offensive, you already have the units to do so. Horsemen can defend and attack, spearmen can only defend, and you are left at the mercy of the AI, where it attacks you, instead of calling the shots yourself!)
I have won games on Emperor where I built no other military units than horsemen...
(On higher levels you may need a few (cheap) defenders for protecting your more valuable attackers against AI counter attacks.)

Don't waste money on upgrading. Just get new units.

I had used all my money to upgrade units (I know now wrong move)

Well, that depends. I agree more with tjs282 on this point: upgrading can be an excellent way of using both, your shields as well as your gold for creating a powerful army. It depends on the situation.
(As you can see from the fact that even the experts disagree sometimes, there is no "silver bullet" in Civ3... It's always about balancing the advantages and disadvantages against each other and there may be more than one strategy that works ok in a given situation.)

(I was republic and didn't want to sell temples since they kept my citizens happy)

Temples are a waste of shields. Never build them. They cost one gold per turn and give one happy face. The same can be achieved by raising the lux slider by 10%... No need to waste 60 shields for doing the same...
(It may be worth it if you are religious, though even then I build them rarely.) More on that further down.

As a general rule, I don't build Fortresses (or Barricades), but if/when I have the occasion to do so (or to steal one from the AI), I leave at least one tile between it and my nearest town (C-x-F/B) for 2 reasons:

Great trick! Never thought of that before...

Given the terrain shown in your screenies, I haven't got any major criticisms of your city placement, apart from

I agree completely. The starting land of your first game was indeed mediocre, while the Incas had excellent land! This increases the difficulty by 1, maybe even 2 levels. So it was more like playing Emperor here than Monarch...

triggering a golden and scientific age

The Scientific Age is broken. (A well-known and notorious bug...) The button is there, but it doesn't do anything... So if you are lucky enough to get a Scientific Great Leader, use it to rush a Wonder! Don't use it to start that scientific age... it has the same effect as simply disbanding the leader...

so all your dry core-towns should have 'Ducts, even if they can only get to Pop8: 20 Pop7+ Core-Cities = 60 free units, not to mention making extra gold per turn in commerce.

Exactly! And in this particular game here, it has even more advantages: most of these towns can reach size 12 and use a lot of coastal tiles (creating a huge income!!), if they get a harbor as well. And for you (as a militaristic civ) a harbor is only 30 shields!!

...These guys! They could be Berzerks by now! I mean, you're playing as the Vikings, on an Archi-map, and you're into the late Middle Age, but you have built no Berzerks yet? Not one?!? You could have been raping and pillaging the entire map for half an Age already!!! I have no words...!

No, wait, yes I do: check out the 'Going on The Pill-age' link in my signature. This is an Emperor-level succession-game on a Std-size 60% Archi-map, as the Vikings, which we won by Domination in 910 AD...

Let me add: the Berzerk is the most powerful unit of the game! In addition to the "Going on the Pillage" game, you should also take a look at the following two games, which show the power of the Berzerk. The first is a "One City Challenge" (= the human player is allowed only one single city) on Deity level, which was won via Conquest in 1385 AD, the other one a Sid level game won by Domination in 650 AD:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/occc1-one-city-conquest.491935/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-spoiler-game-submitted.606686/#post-14630691

 

[GeneralAchilles]

tjs282, Takhisis, CKS and r16 already did a good job at laying their fingers into your weak spots, but there are a few more points I'd like to add here:


My predecessors already pointed out, that you don't need so many defenders. I want to go even one step further and give the following drastic advice: on Monarch level you don't need any of them... If you have horses, it's much better to build a couple of horsemen, station them on roads in a central place, from where they can react to any potential critical situation. This defends as well as a "static" defence by spearmen, and on top of that: once you go on the offensive, you already have the units to do so. Horsemen can defend and attack, spearmen can only defend, and you are left at the mercy of the AI, where it attacks you, instead of calling the shots yourself!)
I have won games on Emperor where I built no other military units than horsemen...
(On higher levels you may need a few (cheap) defenders for protecting your more valuable attackers against AI counter attacks.)



Well, that depends. I agree more with tjs282 on this point: upgrading can be an excellent way of using both, your shields as well as your gold for creating a powerful army. It depends on the situation.
(As you can see from the fact that even the experts disagree sometimes, there is no "silver bullet" in Civ3... It's always about balancing the advantages and disadvantages against each other and there may be more than one strategy that works ok in a given situation.)



Temples are a waste of shields. Never build them. They cost one gold per turn and give one happy face. The same can be achieved by raising the lux slider by 10%... No need to waste 60 shields for doing the same...
(It may be worth it if you are religious, though even then I build them rarely.) More on that further down.


Great trick! Never thought of that before...


I agree completely. The starting land of your first game was indeed mediocre, while the Incas had excellent land! This increases the difficulty by 1, maybe even 2 levels. So it was more like playing Emperor here than Monarch...


The Scientific Age is broken. (A well-known and notorious bug...) The button is there, but it doesn't do anything... So if you are lucky enough to get a Scientific Great Leader, use it to rush a Wonder! Don't use it to start that scientific age... it has the same effect as simply disbanding the leader...


Exactly! And in this particular game here, it has even more advantages: most of these towns can reach size 12 and use a lot of coastal tiles (creating a huge income!!), if they get a harbor as well. And for you (as a militaristic civ) a harbor is only 30 shields!!


Let me add: the Berzerk is the most powerful unit of the game! In addition to the "Going on the Pillage" game, you should also take a look at the following two games, which show the power of the Berzerk. The first is a "One City Challenge" (= the human player is allowed only one single city) on Deity level, which was won via Conquest in 1385 AD, the other one a Sid level game won by Domination in 650 AD:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/occc1-one-city-conquest.491935/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-spoiler-game-submitted.606686/#post-14630691

I would like to publicly thank you for moving my posts I really appreciate it!

I think I understand what you mean about horse being used as a defence mechanism, with a city in xoox position I could help my nearby towns by going to defensive and be more efficient.

I see, so upgrading depends on the circumstances of my civ.

Really? I always build the temple when my population was ready to go to 4, I should definetely use more the slider. However when my slider goes to 40% shouldn't I build temples so that I will give more money to research or increase my commerce? Also should I try to culturaly flip cities or is it a waste of time?
I understand now why that game stressed me so much due to my starting position versus my rival civ.

Didn't really know about the scientific age bug... thanks for your information.

I see, so I should configure my coastal cities taking advantacge of the coast and genarating commerce by building commerce related upgrades (perhaps even science related?) and I should configure my core genarating units while having barracks.

Yes, I was told about that the UU berserk is extremely powerful. The problem was that I didn't knew how to use them, I figured It out in this game.I will also check out your links especially the one city challenge on deity (can't believe he could dominate with only one town... amazing).

 

[justanick]

Really? I always build the temple when my population was ready to go to 4, I should definetely use more the slider. However when my slider goes to 40% shouldn't I build temples so that I will give more money to research or increase my commerce?

The maintenance costs of the tempels would offset that. For temples to pay off you need to have banks and universities first. Effectively this mean that you should not build tempels before you have railroads, factories and electric plants. And even than they can be practically useless if you have marketplaces and 8 luxury goods as that will give 20 happy faces which is more than you will ever need unless you suffer some serios unhappyness from war, from drafting or from forced labor.

Better invest your shields into cavalry in order to get all 8 luxuries into your territory by expanding it.

Also should I try to culturaly flip cities or is it a waste of time?

It is a waste. You would need absurd levels of investment and luck for sucess.

 

[r16]

you should perhaps look for Antal's mods to .exe file where he fixes the Science age thing .

for cultural flip attempts , ı used to place one or two new cities to the target one as close as possible and rush cultural improvements . A couple of cases where the culture of mine reached 10 or 100 , the target fell . A few times it didn't .

horseman only is a good thing , but ı appreciate one or two unit military police effect of the defenders . Save and load being my standart , there would be cases ı would have spearmen or warriors "defending" any town behind the lines . Upgrading them or reinforcing if really surprised -by returning back .

 

[GeneralAchilles]

The maintenance costs of the tempels would offset that. For temples to pay off you need to have banks and universities first. Effectively this mean that you should not build tempels before you have railroads, factories and electric plants. And even than they can be practically useless if you have marketplaces and 8 luxury goods as that will give 20 happy faces which is more than you will ever need unless you suffer some serios unhappyness from war, from drafting or from forced labor.

Better invest your shields into cavalry in order to get all 8 luxuries into your territory by expanding it.



It is a waste. You would need absurd levels of investment and luck for sucess.

True I didn't take the maintainance cost into account on my calculations and I understand what you mean so I should prioritize marketplaces and acquire luxeries and put temples and in rare cases cathedrals as alternatives.

About your point in using cavalry to expand my territory you mean by issuing war and taking cities?

you should perhaps look for Antal's mods to .exe file where he fixes the Science age thing .

for cultural flip attempts , ı used to place one or two new cities to the target one as close as possible and rush cultural improvements . A couple of cases where the culture of mine reached 10 or 100 , the target fell . A few times it didn't .

horseman only is a good thing , but ı appreciate one or two unit military police effect of the defenders . Save and load being my standart , there would be cases ı would have spearmen or warriors "defending" any town behind the lines . Upgrading them or reinforcing if really surprised -by returning back .

Thanks about the mod! I don't like not being able to take advantage of the resources the game offers.

I see so if I have some extra cash and a city or two close to a rival civ I could rush some cultural improvements to flip the rival city.

Of course so if I have a goverment that supports military police I should leave some of my units in garrison and place a few defenders on the core cities and to the cities that are endangered due to siege.

 

[justanick]

True I didn't take the maintainance cost into account on my calculations and I understand what you mean so I should prioritize marketplaces and acquire luxeries and put temples and in rare cases cathedrals as alternatives.

No, that is still way to positive on temples. For the sake of simplicity just donnot build them. Using the shields to build up a capable military is almost always the better idea. If however you do have temples, than building cathedrals is a somewhat easy choice as for 2 gtp your get 3 content faces and 6 if you own Michelangelo.

About your point in using cavalry to expand my territory you mean by issuing war and taking cities?

Horsemen and later cavalry can help you expand your territory. If you have many cities with market places, than importing luxury goods becomes rather expensive, so it is best to have those luxuries in your own territory.

I see so if I have some extra cash and a city or two close to a rival civ I could rush some cultural improvements to flip the rival city.

This is a very bad idea. Better spend the gold into research to get military tradition(cavalry) and replacable parts(artillery and worker do twice the work per turn thus helping with railroading). If you already research at 4 turns per tech you can stockpile cash till research becomes more expensive. It will become a lot more expensive.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/d-2000-in-flip-formula.41933/

This is the flip formula. If you manage to have twice the total culture as the other civ and take 3 tiles into your culture that the other city could use with its citizens if it were in their culture and this other city is protected a 2 units, than chances for a flip would be (3x2 - 2)/2000 = 0.2% per turn or 3.92% per 20 turns. That is a slim chance but even this slim chance requires a huge investment. Warfare is so much more efficient than that that i fail to image any not extremely artificial scenario where this could possible make sense.

Of course so if I have a goverment that supports military police I should leave some of my units in garrison and place a few defenders on the core cities and to the cities that are endangered due to siege.

It depends. The content faces from military police can be useful, especially in freshly conquered cities. But there is little use in having more happiness than needed. Also republic is usually much preferable to governments with military police. So practically speaking the most relevant scenario for military police is to use them in despotism to get slightly faster out of despotism and disband the then unneeded warriors when anarchy is over. Unlike in anarchy units above unit support need to be paid for and unit support is scarce.

 

[CKS]

I see so if I have some extra cash and a city or two close to a rival civ I could rush some cultural improvements to flip the rival city.

Flipping chances are very poor, as justanick explained. However, this can be useful to pull resources into your cultural borders, at least temporarily (and on monarch you can probably usually keep them in your borders). This can let you grab coal long enough to railroad or iron or saltpeter long enough to upgrade your units (and then you can go to war if you like).

Other than culture games, the only other time I can think of where you might want a temple is if you have a single large city that you need to grow. In this case, raising the lux slider for a single city doesn't seem worth it. However this situation is very rare, and usually I don't recognize it ahead of time.

 

[Lanzelot]

(can't believe he could dominate with only one town... amazing).

No, actually we won by Conquest. (Not sure whether a "One-City Domination" would be possible even on a Tiny map...)

Regarding Wonders: Bach's Cathedral is very powerful, but Sistine' Chapel usually is a waste: for it to have any effect, you'd need Cathedrals, and for Cathedrals you'd need Temples first, and as we just told you that Temples are a waste and you should never build them, it follows that Sistine is also a waste...

 

[vorlon_mi]

Not to detract from the great advice given here, but bear in mind an assumption. The assumption is that you're going for one of the Victory Conditions *other* than Cultural. The value of city improvements like Temples and Cathedrals changes when going for a Cultural Victory. Many of the experienced players win by Domination frequently.

Even if one is going for Space Race, you will find the advice here applies. One needs to expand territory and grow your cities and economy efficiently to work your way through the tech tree. Building enough military to avoid being declared upon and to take territory with strategic resources is often key to a Space victory.

 

[Buttercup]

Sistine Chapel is one of my favourite wonders. Playing on Archipelagos it's really quite difficult to get luxuries before Navigation, sometimes not even your own island has them & conquering the world with Galleys is highly unlikely in such a scenario. Also, if you're tight for space on your island and building cities mainly to maximise coastal cash, many wont even get beyond size 8-12 the whole game and will struggle to get even there without the happiness necessary, often being locked at size 5/6 because they're in the second ring where the luxury slider has barely any effect. Since I'm not building many armies and have zero military upkeep beyond any worker excess then that leaves plenty of cash for Temples and Cathedrals, and lots more coastal squares tapped for cash.

But sure, if you're on a Pangea and you've settled amidst 500 cows on grassland, then, sure, just expand and hose...

 

[GeneralAchilles]

No, that is still way to positive on temples. For the sake of simplicity just donnot build them. Using the shields to build up a capable military is almost always the better idea. If however you do have temples, than building cathedrals is a somewhat easy choice as for 2 gtp your get 3 content faces and 6 if you own Michelangelo.



Horsemen and later cavalry can help you expand your territory. If you have many cities with market places, than importing luxury goods becomes rather expensive, so it is best to have those luxuries in your own territory.



This is a very bad idea. Better spend the gold into research to get military tradition(cavalry) and replacable parts(artillery and worker do twice the work per turn thus helping with railroading). If you already research at 4 turns per tech you can stockpile cash till research becomes more expensive. It will become a lot more expensive.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/d-2000-in-flip-formula.41933/

This is the flip formula. If you manage to have twice the total culture as the other civ and take 3 tiles into your culture that the other city could use with its citizens if it were in their culture and this other city is protected a 2 units, than chances for a flip would be (3x2 - 2)/2000 = 0.2% per turn or 3.92% per 20 turns. That is a slim chance but even this slim chance requires a huge investment. Warfare is so much more efficient than that that i fail to image any not extremely artificial scenario where this could possible make sense.



It depends. The content faces from military police can be useful, especially in freshly conquered cities. But there is little use in having more happiness than needed. Also republic is usually much preferable to governments with military police. So practically speaking the most relevant scenario for military police is to use them in despotism to get slightly faster out of despotism and disband the then unneeded warriors when anarchy is over. Unlike in anarchy units above unit support need to be paid for and unit support is scarce.

So basicaly horsemen and cavalry are expanding my borders like the cultural improvements do or you mean that I can use their increased movement to find better places to settle?

Indeed the odds aren't good enough in the culture flip thing It just aren't worth it to put so much money on It, I see now why you had such a hard stance about culture flipping.

I know that republic and later democracy is a better form of goverment than monarchy and communism because of their extra commerce however If I plan on having war for more than 20 turns (assuming I don't possess Universal Suffrage) should I go for monarchy or communism (note that I never went fascism or feudalism so I don't know much about them)?

Flipping chances are very poor, as justanick explained. However, this can be useful to pull resources into your cultural borders, at least temporarily (and on monarch you can probably usually keep them in your borders). This can let you grab coal long enough to railroad or iron or saltpeter long enough to upgrade your units (and then you can go to war if you like).

Other than culture games, the only other time I can think of where you might want a temple is if you have a single large city that you need to grow. In this case, raising the lux slider for a single city doesn't seem worth it. However this situation is very rare, and usually I don't recognize it ahead of time.

Yes I can see the advantages on flipping a city with a strategic resource that I need like your scenario suggested.

So raising the tax slider for a single city when I have let's say 20 and It has for example a hospital in late game is not worth it, does that also count for early era as if for example I have 4 cities 3 of them have 2 citizen and the last on is growing to population 4 from 3 and thus It's citizens will riot in one turn which is the best course of action? Should I rise the lux slide, put a temple (let's assume It will be ready next turn, also I doubt this is the correct answer) or convert a citizen or two to worker or settler (let's also assume that one of my other 3 cities produces a settler every 4 turns so expanding is going smoothly for now) what should I do in such situation?

No, actually we won by Conquest. (Not sure whether a "One-City Domination" would be possible even on a Tiny map...)

Regarding Wonders: Bach's Cathedral is very powerful, but Sistine' Chapel usually is a waste: for it to have any effect, you'd need Cathedrals, and for Cathedrals you'd need Temples first, and as we just told you that Temples are a waste and you should never build them, it follows that Sistine is also a waste...

In most of my games I had Bach's Cathedral and It was indeed powerfull, I would also lie if I said that I did not possess Sistine's Chape as well but the more I think about the advice I got from here the more I understand why I saw some games from other players having 1000+ gpt in later eras where I was getting about 200-300 gpt (even making deals with other civs). I quess I should build more efficiently next time and try not to put every upgrade in every city.

Not to detract from the great advice given here, but bear in mind an assumption. The assumption is that you're going for one of the Victory Conditions *other* than Cultural. The value of city improvements like Temples and Cathedrals changes when going for a Cultural Victory. Many of the experienced players win by Domination frequently.

Even if one is going for Space Race, you will find the advice here applies. One needs to expand territory and grow your cities and economy efficiently to work your way through the tech tree. Building enough military to avoid being declared upon and to take territory with strategic resources is often key to a Space victory.

I don't aim for cultural victory I was thinking of going for space race (yes with a military based civ I am hitting my head in the wall) but I just don't know... the Iroguois are growing to powerful since they expand consistently, the Celts are also closing the gap in the science race (they are close to gaining modern ships and will probably give it to the Iroguois (maybe an embargo is the solution? I also have the tech but not the oil and I also fear that the uranium resource won't be in my territory so perhaps a conquest victory could be more easily attained (Iroguois and Celts are the only civs that pose a threat to me).