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Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    I agree with this in general but would make an exception for happiness, which is also inherently tied to population.


    1 culture for the artist is too weak for internal consistency in not one but two systems: Specialists and culture. The building and city state culture yields set a kind of "exchange rate" of culture to other game variables, as the only significant sources of culture (artist contribution is weak and can be neglected). A cultural CS adds between 10 and 20 culture for 7-10 gold per turn, which yields an exchange rate of 0.5 to 1.3 or so. A temple is worth an exchange rate of 0.66, a monument of 0.5, and the more modern buildings are at 0.6 or better. They all need some kind of down payment (gold in the case of a CS and hammers in the case of buildings) but all are much better than artists which operate at the very best of conditions at an exchange rate of 2 when you compare them to a merchant, who is generally considered to be the second-weakest specialist.

    This means artists are only ever sensible to consider if you go for culture at total expense of other things (aka culture victory). If that's the balance you want to achieve, fine, but otherwise the specialist needs to be buffed.

    For internal consistency of specialists at vanilla yield levels I still think scientists should be at 2, merchants at 4 and artists and engineers at 2. Artists could be at 1.5 (moot point because the game doesn't allow fractions) if great artists were more powerful and the scientist is down-evaluated because the GS is very powerful. For internal consistency of culture, city states should be nerfed or buildings and artists boosted, although a city state nerf is desirable for power-level concerns between city states.
     
  2. jacyp

    jacyp Winter Lover

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    I agree, this makes my race for Stonehenge (while neglecting more settlers and losing some space for cities in the process) seems like a waste of time as I can chill out and settle my cities with piece of mind before I get to this garanteed culture bonus that is National Epic.
     
  3. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Could you open its *.modinfo file and check it does not have a reference to "InGame.xml", but instead has this text?
    Code:
      <EntryPoints>
        <EntryPoint type="InGameUIAddin" file="liberationboost.lua">
          <Name>liberationboost.lua</Name>
          <Description>liberationboost.lua</Description>
        </EntryPoint>
      </EntryPoints>
    Frigates require 1 iron, so if you had 0 iron that's the reason. The railyard is free but there's a game bug where it says free buildings cost 1:c5production:.


    Thank you for suggesting the UI thing about selecting those cities, I'll see what I can do. Also thank you for pointing out the Kremlin issue.

    If you're always annexing when a city's out of resistance, is the Courthouse that easy to build/buy? My goal is 1-2 cities at a time can be annexed, any more would drop into very unhappy state. If it's too easy to get courthouses and counter this, I'll increase their cost.

    I haven't seen any improvements disappear in my games, and didn't code anything that might cause it.


    This sounds like a vanilla game bug since I haven't touched that part of the UI. Do your trades actually work (ignoring what the UI says)?


    Yep I plan to gradually get to all the national wonders, haven't worked with them in a few months. :)

    Piety gives 5:c5happy:, which is equivalent to 1 luxury resource, worth about 8-10:c5gold:/turn (counting tile yield and happiness equivalence from buildings/trades). At 1g/1p for Monarchy it breaks even with Piety at 10 population, which is rather high in the early game, especially for comparing a max-tier policy to a tier-1 policy. Piety does have the tradeoff downside of locking out Rationalism, but that's sufficiently late in the game I think the comparison works.

    Basically, I want Monarchy to be clearly better than Piety since it's several tiers higher in its tree. The reason I'm considering those two in particular is a cultural player is likely to go for those two trees (also, anyone getting Tradition is less likely to do early expansion/war with the Liberty or Honor trees). I could try it out at 1.5g/pop though.


    It'd be very easy to make the whole tooltip thing XML modular if only we had the loadstring command... firaxis blocked that, likely due to security concerns. :(

    I tried exploring things with LuaEvents but the problem is we can't have return values with those (creates multiple threads with no data synchronization between them). This problem we discovered led to Whys creating the Share tools, whose purpose is to work around this issue. It's a little hard to figure out exactly how to adapt this tooltip system to use those tools, though, without spending a day diving into the inner workings of his tools, so I moved on to other things on my todo list for now. :)


    The only yield in the game with no benefit from increasing one's population is culture (with the exception of limited landmarks). Everything else comes directly from population (like science) or high population allows more tiles of the yield to be worked (food/prod/gold). Since Firaxis decided to not make culture an actual yield in the files for some odd reason, it'd be a lot of effort to do so, and I'd have to introduce new improvements to the game to give culture a benefit for having high population. I don't really like the prospect of adding a tile improvement like that.

    This is why I gave the museum culture per pop. The gold per pop of the National Treasury has obvious precedent with the same effect Firaxis added elsewhere.

    I know about the Stonehenge comparison, I always consider those things carefully. :goodjob:

    • I want to buff all the national wonders while also making them more difficult for large empires to get. I haven't touched national wonders in over a month, and recently adjusted the small vs large empire balance in other ways, so I'm back to here again.
    • Cultural victory paths needed some buffs. I've had enough feedback on this over the past month I feel comfortable buffing culture for some national wonder, and this is a logical place to put it (late game already got a buff from better Museums).
    • I'm fine with national wonders of a higher tech level and higher cost being stronger than earlier & cheaper world wonders. After all, Harbors or Lighthouses have alternated between giving +1:c5gold: on water tiles, nearly the same bonus as the Colossus. The point of the early world wonders is the fact they are so early, just the fact they can be built so soon is what makes them strong. 8:c5culture: is huge when it's in the first 50 turns with only one or two cities... 10-15:c5culture: later in the game is less powerful. In addition, remember how you pointed out allying/conquering a citystate denies it to other players? Getting the world wonder denies it to someone else in the game, so it has an added benefit beyond the stated effects.
    • These numbers are not final, still a work in progress. In the latest beta the National Epic requires Temples in all cities.
    • The National Epic gets overshadowed by the National College, and I'd like both to be about equally useful since they appear on the same tech and cost the same. Going for a Temple(s) & National Epic means a significant delay for the Libraries & National College path... and going both paths means not building any military units for quite some time. Basically I'm designing it to be a tradeoff between a big cultural boost everywhere, or a big science boost.
     
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Good points to work from.
     
  5. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I take your point, and I agree the artist is weak (though is 2 culture really not too strong - maybe 1 culture + 1 gold?) but my point was really aimed at +1 culture per population for the national epic, on top of a +50% GPP bonus.
    I think we could hopefully agree that is far too strong.

    Culture city states aren't quite a fair comparison though, because city states give you things other than just the culture bonus (resources, luxuries, military support).
    And the specialist itself also gives gpps, which are valuable.

    Right, this is my point.
    Even at just +50% GPP, the national epic is still worth constructing.
    If you want it to give culture too, make it ~a flat +2 culture or so. Not +1 culture per pop, which could be giving +15 or more, doubled with constitution social policy.

    This should be removed. There's no good reason for having the only naval unit of the era require a strategic resource that not all players will have.

    @Monarchy
    Seems reasonable. 2 is too much.

    Not really true at all, because the effect is indirect; in tall empires with fewer cities, social policies cost less, so each culture point is more valuable.

    I don't like it on the museum either. If you want to make culture work like others, then have % multipliers.

    But if you must stick with per pop, then reduce it from 1. You shouldn't be getting +15 culture (doubled with constitution) from a single building.

    The national treasury doesn't also give +50% gold, and 1 gold is less valuable than 1 culture, and its a national wonder.

    Sure, but its not like the national epic is a late-game wonder.

    Which is also arguably too strong.
    Much more powerful than world wonders of the same era.

    I hadn't noticed that, its a good delay, but 1 culture per pop is still far too much.

    I'd argue the opposite. Trying to build a world wonder is risky, because with significant probability you'll be beaten to it and lose your progress. Hence, the reward for the world wonder needs to be larger to make it worth chasing.
    For national wonders, there is no risk of being beaten to it, so no need to reward that excess risk.
     
  6. doktorstick

    doktorstick Warlord

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    It wasn't the iron that had me perplexed, it was the horse requirement listed in the upgrade tooltip (albeit a 0 horse requirement).
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I just downloaded v11, activated Tech Diffusion and Liberation as well as WWGD do and FR. I had no UI for the Settler. I disabled TD and it worked.
     
  8. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Thanks Txurce, I added the Lua context but forgot to remove the InGame.xml from tech diffusion.

    I think this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I feel small empires (~5 cities) are still not as competitive in the small-vs-large comparison as they were in Civ 4, and I feel a good way to buff small empires is to buff national wonders. This is just personal opinion/preference of course, everyone might take a different approach to balancing this aspect of the game. The reason I'm choosing to buff national wonders is they seem to have been designed by Firaxis to achieve this small vs large balance, but to do so, need a little more work.

    This is why in the conversation last week about annex/puppet/raze I treated puppet states as a transitional stage to annexation, because otherwise these national wonder buffs I had planned could affect conquerors too. Puppets are a way to sort of cheat national wonder requirements. :)

    It's also why I moved the National College to a later tech and increased its cost to +30% per city, up from +20%, to keep it very powerful and desirable but only easily attainable for small empires. This goal isn't entirely achieved yet, but these mods are always a work in progress.
     
  9. Puer

    Puer Warlord

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    Balance - Combined (v2.0.11 beta) + Liberation boost (v 1.1) = missing unit UI
     
  10. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    Yes, which is why I specifically quoted the part about artists ;)

    I don't think 2 culture is too strong, unless the GA gets a significant buff (which I think Thal is planning). It still provides only as much culture as a monument, at a higher cost if you consider that you have to forego working a tile for it, which provides at least something like 2F2G, more the further the game progresses. I do admit to having shuffled around artist slots a little in PWM, though, so I can't really say if it makes the temple too good if you go for culture.

    Also, I didn't even factor in other gains for cultural CS, which makes my above post actually a worst-case scenario for them if you already have the luxury from another CS (which means you can't sellt hem) and they don't provide any resources. So they're still way better than running an artist in the worst case. Even giving artists as much as 2 c/t does not make it better than getting another city state or building a higher-level building. They're still something to improve your maximum output in the short term, when no building is available or when all tiles the city can work are worked.

    A secondary point to consider when evaluating artists is the lack of modifier buildings for most of the game. Science gets the university, gold gets Markets and Banks , production admittedly doesn't get much, either, and culture gets the late-game broadcast tower - which is why I also changed the opera to provide a +50% culture modifier and +1 culture instead of a flat +4 culture.
     
  11. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I shuffled around artist slots too, moved one slot from the Temple to Broadcast Tower when I increased the effect of artists. I intended to do so, at least... I thought I'd buffed artists to 2:c5culture: some time ago (back in mid-December at the same time as the slot move) but somehow the change got accidentally forgotten or deleted. It seems we tend to think along time same lines for a lot of things. :)
     
  12. gandalf51

    gandalf51 Chieftain

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    Thanks again for you work Thalassicus.

    What about changing completely the use of strategic resources ?
    Instead of not be able to build units and a huge penalty in battle, why not make resources affect the building time ?
    So, for example, if you want to build a siege unit when having no iron left the building time will increase by 100% + x% for each additional missing iron.


    Have you seen the AI Equalizer by Buckets ?
    For me having AI completely ignoring unhappiness and being able to build any numbers of cities is not really balanced.


    On a side note does anyone know about a mod that would allow workers to growth forests ?
     
  13. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    Oh, I forgot to reply to the events thing. While it's technically true that events don't return something, you can create something like event ping-pong.

    What I mean is that you first load all contexts. In your tooltip file you create an event listener called OnAddBuildingTooltipString(). In the add-in files you define a listener for another event called ReadyToReceiveTooltips or something. Then, when your tooltip file executed, you trigger the ReadyToReceiveTooltips event and each listener for that even in turn triggers the AddBuildingTooltipString event.

    While this is not guaranteed to be synchronized like you want for a function call (or shared data), that doesn't really matter for the case at hand because order is irrelevant.
     
  14. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    @gandalf51
    That's an interesting idea, though probably beyond the scope of these mods... more like something for a full-fledged gameplay mod. :)

    I agree entirely that the AI ignoring unhappiness is annoying, but there's some things about that we can't overcome. For example, all AIs play on the Settler difficulty setting and get a decent, fixed happiness bonus on top of that... to my knowledge this is something we can't change.


    @Alpaca
    I think I get what you're saying! I started along the path of trying to implement a listener/generator system like but my head started spinning when I considered the multithreading issue, so I put it on hold as a secondary priority while working on other things. The algorithm itself I've simplified, here's the code I have:

    Spoiler :
    PHP:
    local buildingStat = { }

    --[[
    function 
    onAddToStatTable(tableNametableDatatablePos)
      if 
    tablePos then
        table
    .insert(tableNametablePosstatData)
      else
        
    table.insert(tableNamestatData)
      
    end
    end
    LuaEvents
    .AddToStatTable.AddonAddToStatTable );
    --]]

    function 
    SetDefaultBuildingStatData(iBuildingIDbExcludeNamebExcludeHeaderbNoMaintenance)
    ...
    stuff...
    end

    function GetDefaultBuildingStatText(iBuildingIDstatTypestatValue)
    ...
    stuff...
    end

    function GetHelpTextForBuilding(iBuildingIDbExcludeNamebExcludeHeaderbNoMaintenance)
      
    local strHelpText ""
      
    local strWrittenHelpText GameInfo.Buildings[iBuildingID].Help or ""
      
      
    -- Pre-written Help text
      
    if strWrittenHelpText ~= "" then
        strWrittenHelpText 
    Locale.ConvertTextKey(strWrittenHelpText)
      
    end
      
      SetDefaultBuildingStatData
    (iBuildingIDbExcludeNamebExcludeHeaderbNoMaintenance)
      
      -- 
    load custom mod-added building stats here
      
      
    for _,statData in ipairs(buildingStats) do
        
    local statTextFunc statData[3] or GetDefaultBuildingStatText
        local statText
    statWrittenText statTextFunc(iBuildingIDstatData[1], statData[2])
        
    strHelpText strHelpText .. statText
        strWrittenHelpText 
    strWrittenHelpText .. statWrittenText
      end
      
      strHelpText 
    string.gsub(strHelpText"^%[NEWLINE%]+""")
      
    strWrittenHelpText string.gsub(strWrittenHelpText"^%[NEWLINE%]+""")
      
    strWrittenHelpText string.gsub(strWrittenHelpText"^%[NEWLINE%]+""")
      
      if 
    strWrittenHelpText ~= "" then
        strHelpText 
    strHelpText .. "[NEWLINE]----------------[NEWLINE]"
        
    strHelpText strHelpText .. strWrittenHelpText
      end
      
      
    return strHelpText;
    end


    You can see I reduced hardcoding as much as possible, with data moved out of the primary algorithm, and a capability to define a custom text function for stats in data[3] (first line of the main algorithm loop).

    So what you're saying is I'd generate the "ReadyToReceiveTooltips" event at the line I got stumped and commented "load custom mod-added building stats here"?
     
  15. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    You'd have to do something a bit more complicated to be threadsafe (and I'm not sure it works because I don't know when the game loads the tooltips). Basically, you need to define a tooltip lookup table in the tooltip include that stores additional functions to be executed when the tooltip is queried. When running the file for the first time, you load all tooltip add-ins like I wrote and have your listener for the BuildingTooltipAdded event add those functions to the table. Then, when the tooltip is queried, you loop over the lookup table and execute all the functions. This should make sure they are executed in a serial fashion like we need them to in this case.

    Basically:

    Patron: On script execution: Create contexts, define BuildingTooltipAdded listener adding functions to the lookup table, fire ReadyToReceiveTooltips event

    Clients: On script execution: Define function for tooltip handling, define ReadyToReceiveTooltips listener which contains nothing but a call to BuildingTooltipAdded containing the tooltip handler function
     
  16. Maxii

    Maxii Chieftain

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    I'm also confirming "Balance - Combined (v2.0.11 beta) + Liberation boost (v 1.1) = missing unit UI".
     
  17. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    My problem is that with the early game national wonders, there is no reason why they necessarily need to imply a small empire.
    Its perfectly possible to:
    a) Build those national wonders early, and then found new cities.
    b) Have a very large empire with ~4-5 core cities and then lots of puppets
    c) Build cheap/high value structures like libraries in every city even with a fairly large number of cities.

    A national wonder that requires a tier2 or tier3 structure everywhere is very different to one that requires a tier1 structure.
    What is the logical reason for some national wonders to have costs scale with number of cities, but not others?

    I didn't see this in the changelog, seems like a reasonable way of making puppets hurt.

    Right, which is why I'm trying to provide balance feedback. +1 culture per citizen on top of +50% GPPs is too strong for an early game national wonder.

    I'd prefer to buff the GA here; I think I've said elsewhere that specialists should be about great people, so I think I'd prefer a stronger GA to a 2-culture artist.
    But I can definitely live with a 2-culture artist specialist when temples only have 1 slot; preventing the national epic from being too powerful is much more important I think.

    I agree that % modifiers are a good way to go, so that you can concentrate yield boosters and actually specialize culture.

    A +% culture boost on the national epic would be a better solution than + culture per pop.
    That way, you're encouraged to build it in an actual culture city - one with monastary and buildings that benefit it, or with Landmark improvements.

    Speed on the dll.
    Such BS that this is hard-coded.
     
  18. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Thank you Maxii, I'll try some further work on updating liberation boost.

    @alpaca
    Sounds like what I did for custom text handling:

    • statData[1] = name
    • statData[2] = value of the stat
    • statData[3] = function reference for specialized text handling
    statData[3] is executed as it gets to each stat, and runs either the function included there, or the default one if [3] is nil.

    So what you're saying is if index 2 is also a function reference I loop through, it should (hopefully!) make it threadsafe?


    That's part of why I moved the earliest national wonders later in the tech tree with more challenging prerequisites, and nerfed puppets. Getting the College and Epic with only 1-2 cities early on now significantly delays expansion, and keeping an empire as puppets has stiffer penalties.

    All national wonders actually scale in cost with the number of cities. This has been in vanilla since patch .135 in December, which is what Firaxis meant by "the cost goes up as number of cities increases" on tooltips. You can see this more clearly with the new dynamic tooltip system where the exact numbers are shown for each national wonder. :)

    Currently:

    • 30% - Baths, College, Epic, Treasury, Oxford
    • 20% - Agra, Ironworks
    • 10% - Heroic, Hermitage

    The first change should be in the changelog, not sure which version I added it. The second change is for the next beta release. In beta versions I often add a change only to alter it or remove it again a few days later, so I don't always document it ahead of time. I always make sure everything is documented well in the public releases though. :)
     
  19. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    (double post)
     
  20. jacyp

    jacyp Winter Lover

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    I'm playing v.11 and I have no detailed info while hovering the mouse over a building I can build. I get only the maintenance cost and sometimes one bonus given by the build, at most.

    Am I the only one having this?
     

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