Getting Started

[Seek]

I've been thinking of naming the Japanese courthouse "Shiro," the word for castle. Many towns in the feudal era were centered around castles as administrative centers (much like feudal towns in Europe). Since it's only available to occupied cities I don't plan on including a defensive bonus, but will instead do something simple like reduced cost or maintenance.

So from the lack of response I guess my suggestion above isn't something you will consider (which I get, since the combat AI gets hosed so often as it is now from lack of sight that it may be OP and it may not even be possible). But to me a reduced cost or maintenance courthouse is kind of bland. An alternate unique courthouse idea for the Japanese:

Social Policy costs are not increased by the usual 30% when a Shiro (Courthouse replacement) is built in an annexed city.

Again, I don't know if this is possible, but I think a UB ought to have something more interesting going for it than reduced cost/maintenance.

 

[Thalassicus]

I apologize, didn't want it to seem like I'm ignoring you or anyone else. I haven't been responding to every post individually because I've had lots of work from my job lately, rather tired and trying to save some time. I do read and think about every post. The final idea on your list (a unique castle) is the reason I researched Japanese castles for a few hours and found the Shiro name.

I know reduced cost isn't terribly thrilling, but it's a starting point. You can see what options we have available in the table definitions of Civ5Buildings.xml. There's about 95 basic attributes and 30 supplementary tables. Most of the secondary tables are yield modifiers, but there's some interesting attributes in there which aren't used by other buildings in the game (like an attribute that increases the effect of specialists).

I'm hesitant to use some of the attributes because courthouses can only be built in annexed cities... yet I do find the idea of a unique courthouse appealing because no other civ has something that interacts with the annex/puppet/raze dynamic.

 

[Seek]

I apologize, didn't want it to seem like I'm ignoring you or anyone else. I haven't been responding to every post individually because I've had lots of work from my job lately, rather tired and trying to save some time. I do read and think about every post. The final idea on your list (a unique castle) is the reason I researched Japanese castles for a few hours and found the Shiro name.

I know reduced cost isn't terribly thrilling, but it's a starting point. You can see what options we have available in the table definitions of Civ5Buildings.xml. There's about 95 basic attributes and 30 supplementary tables. Most of the secondary tables are yield modifiers, but there's some interesting attributes in there which aren't used by other buildings in the game (like an attribute that increases the effect of specialists).

I'm hesitant to use some of the attributes because courthouses can only be built in annexed cities... yet I do find the idea of a unique courthouse appealing because no other civ has something that interacts with the annex/puppet/raze dynamic.

It's cool, I know you have a lot of stuff on your plate - tried my best not to sound too snarky!

Anyway, I took a look at the buildings.xml and found a couple that I thought were interesting:

1. There's a PolicyCostModifier in the basic attributes list, which would allow for the "no increased cost of annexed cities with courthouse" idea. (It's the modifier used by the Cristo Redentor.) Thinking about it more, perhaps only half penalty reduction would keep it from being OP: 15% instead of 30%?
2. There's also a Building_ResourceCultureChanges in the supplementary tables list which might be interesting - give +1 culture yield from certain luxury resources (although after reading further, this probably wouldn't combine well with a unique courthouse, as this is the mechanic used by the Monastery).

Maybe I'm too hung up on a cultural bonus for the Japanese, but I think Japanese culture is very interesting and should be reflected by their trait. [EDIT: I also feel like most of the culture buildings are pretty boring.] Besides, this conversation was begun on the premise of moving some of the more militaristic civs away from their combat orientation: IMO, option 1 above would achieve an interesting merging of militaristic and builder type playstyles.
Thanks for taking the time to do all that you do

PS- I did a couple of icons for the City-State Diplomacy mod (you can see them here and here) and had a good time doing it, so if you need someone to do that sort of thing, let me know. Note, I don't have a ton of time for it, but I could probably do one or two a week.

 

[Perkus]

A courthouse with that PolicyCostModifier modifier is... interesting. Would make for a civ that can run a sprawling empire and still get social policies quite often. Although that sounds more like the Mongols / China / England or somebody else huge, not the Japanese.

 

[Seek]

A courthouse with that PolicyCostModifier modifier is... interesting. Would make for a civ that can run a sprawling empire and still get social policies quite often. Although that sounds more like the Mongols / China / England or somebody else huge, not the Japanese.

Agreed, which is why I initially suggested a more protectionistic trait. (Like this for China especially - much cooler than the Paper Maker. Might be OP though.)
Maybe option 2 above then? Monastery replacement with, say, Whales, Dye and Silk giving culture in addition to Incense and Wine.
Another idea: a UB (not sure atm what would be the best building to replace) with added food (or another yield bonus [culture!]) from sea resources, reflecting the maritime dependency of Japan.

PS: I've heard that there is no culture/pop building modifier, is that correct? I didn't see one in the buildings.xml, but I'm no modder, so..

 

[Txurce]

Monastery replacement with culture for indigenous natural resources sounds perfect.

 

[Thalassicus]

It'd be great to have icons for the Aqueduct and national wonders I introduced in City Development. I've attached the PSD file I created for the Agra Fort... haven't had time to do the other icons or import them to the game.

PolicyCostModifier wouldn't be practical for the purpose you describe, as the policy modifier varies dependent on map size. It's 30% on Duel maps, and I think 5% on Huge. Normal sized maps are 15% or so. The only way to effectively do it would be with source code access, find the algorithm that prevents costs from increasing for puppets, and expose this as a new building attribute.

"Culture/pop building modifier"... what do you mean by this?

A unique monastery (T&#333 would be interesting. I'll think it over for a while.

 

[ezysquire]

Monastery replacement with, say, Whales, Dye and Silk giving culture in addition to Incense and Wine.
Another idea: a UB (not sure atm what would be the best building to replace) with added food (or another yield bonus [culture!]) from sea resources, reflecting the maritime dependency of Japan.

Okay, so npt overly imaginative (ala cIV) but a Japanese castle that gave a cultrue bonus and possibly artist slot seems appropriate as a UB for medieval Japan.

British factory - still mulling that one over.

 

[Thalassicus]

There's also gameplay aspects to consider. India's castle improves culture, so a similar Japanese UB wouldn't be as unique as some other options. This is why I've been hesitant to make another unique castle.

 

[ezysquire]

hmmm, did not think of that - have not played as India yet

 

[ezysquire]

There's also gameplay aspects to consider. India's castle improves culture, so a similar Japanese UB wouldn't be as unique as some other options. This is why I've been hesitant to make another unique castle.

Working from this notion as a start point...

Japan: replace the theatre with a beefed up happiness/culture building that is like a 'poet's garden' or something meditation/philosophically based. Afterakk, when was the last time you saw some good Japanese theatre?

England: instead of altering factory for UB, give the English a UB at railroad technology - train yard which boosts production further.

 

[Thalassicus]

For anyone interested in doing some testing, I've attached "development" versions of the mods to the first post, what I'm playing with right now.

Download at bottom of the first post.

 

[Thalassicus]

Here's some out-of-the-box ideas:

Shiro : Japanese castle, eliminates and costs no maintenance.
Foundry : English factory, available at Economics with 1 Engineer slot.

Courthouse and Castle merged for Japanese, and English can get a head start on industrialization. I thought of putting factories at Scientific Theory, but that would likely be overpowered since it requires <10% of the tech tree before it.

 

[Tomice]

So the Japanese castle would be a much cheaper replacement for courthouses (If the city has walls already)?

How often would that be of use? And could the AI use it?




Regarding English factories:

England was known for very exploitative factory work, especially regarding children. Austria had obligatory schooling for children from 6-12 from 1774 on, while the first law for the protection of child workers in England dates to 1802.

What about a more effective factory having an unhappiness penalty?

 

[Thalassicus]

Side by side:

Courthouse
removed, 175, 5/turn

Walls + Shiro (total effects)
removed, 300, 1/turn, 25

More up-front cost but pays out in the long run, and triples city defenses. This sort of UB would fit both the protectionist and autocratic shogunate history of the civ. Encouraging the AI to build it is a simple matter of adjusting the Flavor values.

That actually gives me an idea... even if I don't add this building, it'd be nifty to set Oda Nobunaga's defense flavor to the same as City States so he builds a bunch of walls. I personally feel the AI leaders don't have enough character... all seem the same.

I'm not worried about overpowering the Japanese either, as it's currently a rather weak civ and voted poorly on the "favorite civs" poll of the strategy forum. The Zero has no point since the AI doesn't build air, and Bushido has no effect if you keep things healed.

I remember reading a thread it's not possible to give buildings unhappiness... something about negative happiness values not working. I don't think any building has a penalty other than maintenance.

 

[bigfatjonny]

To more serious issues: England better factory - good idea.
Name suggestion for 'improved factory' = workhouse - a low cost but production heavy institution
I still think the +2 move for ships has to go. This is where the merchant aspect of Britain probably needs to be included. Maybe the answer is to make England good with luxuries in the same way as Russia is with strategic resources.

Is it possible to increase the effect of trade routes that are not connected by road, but by harbor only?
This would reflect the naval and merchant aspect of England as an Empire.
I like the workhouse idea.

 

[Seek]

It'd be great to have icons for the Aqueduct and national wonders I introduced in City Development. I've attached the PSD file I created for the Agra Fort... haven't had time to do the other icons or import them to the game.

PolicyCostModifier wouldn't be practical for the purpose you describe, as the policy modifier varies dependent on map size. It's 30% on Duel maps, and I think 5% on Huge. Normal sized maps are 15% or so. The only way to effectively do it would be with source code access, find the algorithm that prevents costs from increasing for puppets, and expose this as a new building attribute.

Ah, that's too bad, would've been interesting. You can't fake it by putting different buildings in according to map size can you? (I think I read that you can by difficulty.)

"Culture/pop building modifier"... what do you mean by this?

You know, an effect like +1 for every 3 - I know / is possible. Would make for some more unique culture buildings.

A unique monastery (T&#333 would be interesting. I'll think it over for a while.

I was also thinking about suggesting a theater replacement, as Ezysquire did above

Japan: replace the theatre with a beefed up happiness/culture building that is like a 'poet's garden' or something meditation/philosophically based. Afterakk, when was the last time you saw some good Japanese theatre?

Could (maybe) use this in conjunction with the yield per resource idea I put forward above, call it Noh Theater.

The castle idea was something I was hesitant to suggest (because it's kind of obvious and because of the Indian UB) but going with the "remove castle" idea, I think you should change the ConquestProb modifier for walls so that they are very rarely destroyed when the city is conquered, otherwise it will be pretty weak. In fact, it could be interesting if walls were never destroyed - Japan would gun for cities with walls because of castle-building efficiency while other civs would naturally avoid them. Maybe give the castle replace another small bonus in addition for flavor? Personally, I really like multipurpose buildings, and Civ5 has precious few of them.

I should have some time in the next couple days to do some work on the icons, Thal.

 

[Thalassicus]

@bigfatjonny
Naval trade routes are connected by both land and harbor. The harbor simply allows the route to cross the coastal boundary; it starts and ends on city land tiles.

@Seek
The Building_YieldChangesPerPop table's YieldType attribute uses a reference to Yields, which are . Culture is often handled differently (such as with Monasteries).

Conquest probability is something we should avoid, since it would provide a dramatic advantage to attackers (especially with the buffs defensive buildings got). Defenders would require an equally powerful siege force to recapture their cities.

The reason I keep thinking back to a UB that interacts with occupied cities is it would be truly unique. There's many buildings that deal with culture, but none influence the courthouse/puppet/burn dynamic. The only things I can think of which interact with this are Theocracy and Police State, two policies people rarely get.

 

[Txurce]

For anyone interested in doing some testing, here's "development" versions of the mods, what I'm playing with right now. It'll probably be another week until these get to a release version as I'm working on a few things (custom notification manager, partisans).

It goes without saying stability or balance of test versions cannot be assured.

Two major things among other smaller changes:

duration: 150% from happiness, 75% from great people
: 1 free policy at each era, Utopia requires one additional tree.

I'm happy to test these, especially since they include Harder Free Tech. Has there been discussion of the two major proposed changes (GA, SP) on any thread?

 

[Txurce]

Side by side:

Courthouse
removed, 175, 5/turn

Walls + Shiro
removed, 300, 1/turn, 25

More up-front cost but pays out in the long run, and triples city defenses. This sort of UB would fit both the protectionist and autocratic shogunate history of the civ. Encouraging the AI to build it is a simple matter of adjusting the Flavor values.

That actually gives me an idea... even if I don't add this building, it'd be nifty to set Oda Nobunaga's defense flavor to the same as City States so he builds a bunch of walls. I personally feel the AI leaders don't have enough character... all seem the same.

I'm not worried about overpowering the Japanese either, as it's currently a rather weak civ and voted poorly on the "favorite civs" poll of the strategy forum. The Zero has no point since the AI doesn't build air, and Bushido has no effect if you keep things healed.

I remember reading a thread it's not possible to give buildings unhappiness... something about negative happiness values not working. I don't think any building has a penalty other than maintenance.

This version of a shiro makes sense for me. I would definitely not consider it OP - it would still fall into the "occasionally useful" character of Bushido. If there is no option to go for a courthouse, it's an automatic benefit for the AI, which is great.

I will comment on the idea of more castles for the AI in the Strategy thread soon.