Give corporations more realistic names

[Silence101]

Well if you put it that way, every player in the game runs a dictatorship - or an oligarchy if a succession game! Select universal suffrage or representation all you like - it's still a one-man show.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point... you may need to clarify for me. The type of government that you run doesn't determine whether or not there's a public sector. I'm not aware of a government in existence where *something* isn't owned by the state, regardless of whether it's a dictatorship or a representative republic.

Also, if you're talking about private sector corporations, realistically there should be hundreds of them as opposed to the seven in the game - I think the private sector in Civ is represented more by towns and trade. The corporations in Civ are in-fact state owned and ran by the state - or you, in this case.

 

[mitsho]

He rather means that it doesn't matter whether you chose universal suffrage or hereditary rule. It is still you how makes all the decisions. Thus, corporations are owned and directed by you because civilization is a god-game. And so, you can't really say that the game depicts only state-owned corporations... It may be, but it doesn't have to.

 

[SenhorDaGuerra]

as a side note, British Steel is now known as Corus.

 

[Silence101]

He rather means that it doesn't matter whether you chose universal suffrage or hereditary rule. It is still you how makes all the decisions. Thus, corporations are owned and directed by you because civilization is a god-game. And so, you can't really say that the game depicts only state-owned corporations... It may be, but it doesn't have to.

Right - I agree that you represent the state state regardless of the type of government that you're running. I guess from a realizm standpoint, it just seems to make more sense to me that the corporations in Civ a owned by the state... again because to assume that there's only seven private corporations in the world doesn't make sense... (One would have to wonder what a given Civ's economy is based on.) I still think that in Civ, the private sector is better represented by towns and domestic & international trade.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point... you may need to clarify for me. The type of government that you run doesn't determine whether or not there's a public sector. I'm not aware of a government in existence where *something* isn't owned by the state, regardless of whether it's a dictatorship or a representative republic.

Also, if you're talking about private sector corporations, realistically there should be hundreds of them as opposed to the seven in the game - I think the private sector in Civ is represented more by towns and trade. The corporations in Civ are in-fact state owned and ran by the state - or you, in this case.

I tend to disagree. Corporations will one day rule the earth! I think of the big seven as a view of the golden future of our planet as seen through the eyes of upper echelon corporate executives. seriously, though, in civ we don't really run the corporations, just spread them.

 

[jason77024]

I guess from a realizm standpoint, it just seems to make more sense to me that the corporations in Civ a owned by the state... again because to assume that there's only seven private corporations in the world doesn't make sense...

Well, think about the Gilded Age corporations in the US, back before McKinley and (Teddy) Roosevelt busted the monopolies. The pre-eminence of Standard Oil*, Union Pacific, GE, US Steel.... That plus the fact that Firaxis play-testing determined 7 to be the right number of religions.

@mitsho: danke fuer die Erklaerung meiner o.g. Mitteilung.

Jason

* To give you an idea of how big Standard Oil was.... its break-up resulted in the following (i.a.):
Amoco, Atlantic (later Arco), Chevron, Conoco, Exxon, Marathon, and Mobil. Some pretty heavy hitters there, but they all used to be one company(!).

 

[JFLNYC]

* To give you an idea of how big Standard Oil was.... its break-up resulted in the following (i.a.):
Amoco, Atlantic (later Arco), Chevron, Conoco, Exxon, Marathon, and Mobil. Some pretty heavy hitters there, but they all used to be one company(!).

And undoubtedly will be again as we continue through the New Gilded Age.

 

[Silence101]

Well, think about the Gilded Age corporations in the US, back before McKinley and (Teddy) Roosevelt busted the monopolies. The pre-eminence of Standard Oil*, Union Pacific, GE, US Steel.... That plus the fact that Firaxis play-testing determined 7 to be the right number of religions.

@mitsho: danke fuer die Erklaerung meiner o.g. Mitteilung.

Jason

* To give you an idea of how big Standard Oil was.... its break-up resulted in the following (i.a.):
Amoco, Atlantic (later Arco), Chevron, Conoco, Exxon, Marathon, and Mobil. Some pretty heavy hitters there, but they all used to be one company(!).

Alright, then what what does income from trade represent? What does income from towns represent? I stand by my original point. The corporations in BTS are state sponsored and are not representative of private sector businesses.

Aside from the fact that we have an obvious world monopoly on sushi... who sells cars in the world of Civ? (or gasoline, for that matter...) Who builds homes? Who makes computer chips? Who builds lawn equipment? Who owns the TV and radio stations? Who makes tennis shoes?

Edit: This is bound to be misinterpreted, so let me clarify - the corporations that sell cars, etc, are in Civ... they're not listed by name, but they're represented in the form of taxes that come from towns and trade. The Big 7 corporations in Civ are public sector corporations.

 

[Lurking Liu]

What the... Why is there debate about what Standard Ethanol would be in real life?

Standard Ethanol = Standard Oil, AKA S.O., Esso, and Exxon.

They were hit with an anti-trust suit back in the early (mid?) 1900s and broken into several dozen smaller companies. One of them chose the name Esso, and was legally forced to rename itself because it was too similar to S.O, hence: Exxon.

 

[Antilogic]

Standard Ethanol, as represented in the game, implies a corporation that makes a lot of money by not using petroleum, but rather a farm-based processed ethanol alternative. Standard Oil was a massive petro-magnate. There's a big difference in those two business plans.

 

[uat2d]

god knows whats in the KFC...

That's easy, it's the H5N1 virus (Bird Flu)

 

[jason77024]

Alright, then what what does income from trade represent? What does income from towns represent? I stand by my original point. The corporations in BTS are state sponsored and are not representative of private sector businesses.

The simplest proof is that some of the BtS corporations generate culture. When did state-owned companies ever do that? (Other than Monty Python...)

Seriously, towns and trade represent the smaller-scale economies that existed hundreds/thousands of years ago. Correspondingly, there's a relatively big boost for early luxuries - gold, gems, spices, silk, etc.

Now, take the techs required for Civ corporations

From the period 1850-1900:
Combustion: First oil wells drilled, kerosene replaces whale oil (Combustion obsoletes whale in Civ - whaddaya know?)
Refrigeration: Commercial refrigeration (shipping, railcars)
Railroad: Obvious, but US transcontinental RR among others ~1830-1900.
Medicine: this is an ongoing tech of course, but this was the time of Lister (antiseptic surgery) & Pasteur (vaccines, germ theory), etc. I am sure others here know more than I do about this, but that time period must have been a quantum leap fwd for medicine.
Plastics: commericalization later, but this is the Ethanol company, and ethanol was used in the US in the late 1800's (before oil wound up being cheaper, ironically)
Rocketry: Tsiolkovsky's (the Civ quote guy) most important work dates from 1903. Not the best fit, but it is a space race tech...
Mass Media: OK, this one is later. Radio would be a better fit imo.

BUT! Just as with religions, for game play purposes you don't want everything available at the same time...

In the second half of the 19th century, the US had a number of private sector mega-corporations (to use a more modern term!) which achieved near-monopoly control over markets; I mentioned some of them in an earlier post. This seems to match up rather well with the requisite technologies. It is too good a fit to be anything else.

The Big 7 corporations in Civ are public sector corporations.

If the corps are state-owned, then riddle me this:

Why are they cancelled out by running State Property?

 

[Silence101]

The simplest proof is that some of the BtS corporations generate culture. When did state-owned companies ever do that? (Other than Monty Python...)

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Why would something state owned not generate culture?

Seriously, towns and trade represent the smaller-scale economies that existed hundreds/thousands of years ago. Correspondingly, there's a relatively big boost for early luxuries - gold, gems, spices, silk, etc.

Exactly - that's what I said in my previous post.

If the corps are state-owned, then riddle me this:

Why are they cancelled out by running State Property?

That's a pretty good arguement. I might have to give you that one. So maybe you're right that this was Fraxis' intention when implementing corporations - but if they were going to simulate monopolies, wouldn't have been better to use corporations that are in a line of business more condusive to monopolies - like railroads, steel, oil... (Standard Ethanol is not oil) - I mean a monopoly on sushi?

 

[jason77024]

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Why would something state owned not generate culture?

Sorry, just a throw-away line from thinking of every "customer-service" interaction I had visiting the USSR back in the day. (That's why the next paragraph began "Seriously,".)

Exactly - that's what I said in my previous post.

Yep. Just drawing a contrast between smaller-scale trade and overdrive capitalism.

That's a pretty good arguement. I might have to give you that one. So maybe you're right that this was Fraxis' intention when implementing corporations - but if they were going to simulate monopolies, wouldn't have been better to use corporations that are in a line of business more condusive to monopolies - like railroads, steel, oil... (Standard Ethanol is not oil) - I mean a monopoly on sushi?

Well, Firaxis is trying to represent the period, but as I stated above, you've got game-play issues as well. Replicating the US Gilded Age conditions would give you seven corps all using the same resources. You want some overlap to represent competition for limited resources, but having every corp use iron/coal wouldn't work.

Moreover, the game offers something for everyone. If you are pursuing a culture win, go for these corps, space race another, domination win others. Even for a diplo campaign, the food corps would help some.

Finally, there's the ability to create resources you don't have. This is a big recurring theme in Civ - ever play Persia and not get horses early? Say it's 1900, the borders are basically fixed because all the survivors have big armies, and you don't have oil. Uh-oh. Well now you're not screwed. Btw, there's an early 20th-century analog for this - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process

And, uh, I am not sure how to make the case for a sushi monopoly.

 

[RedRalph]

If the corps are state-owned, then riddle me this:

Why are they cancelled out by running State Property?

I dont care what your argument is; once you ask riddle me this, I'm 100% won over

 

[hoopsnerd]

I tend to disagree. Corporations will one day rule the earth! I think of the big seven as a view of the golden future of our planet as seen through the eyes of upper echelon corporate executives. seriously, though, in civ we don't really run the corporations, just spread them.

Haha that reminds me of Austin Powers when Dr. Evil gets unfrozen.

#2: "No, no you don't understand. There is no world anymore, there are only corporations."

 

[hoopsnerd]

That's a pretty good arguement. I might have to give you that one. So maybe you're right that this was Fraxis' intention when implementing corporations - but if they were going to simulate monopolies, wouldn't have been better to use corporations that are in a line of business more condusive to monopolies - like railroads, steel, oil... (Standard Ethanol is not oil) - I mean a monopoly on sushi?

Its kind of weird, because I don't think they represent "monopolies" either because the corps compete with one-another yet dont require the same resources? That's what doesn't make sense to me... How does Cereal Mills compete with Sid's Sushi when there is no resource they share? They don't really "compete" at all, you just can't have both in the same city.

 

[jason77024]

That's what doesn't make sense to me... How does Cereal Mills compete with Sid's Sushi when there is no resource they share?

Rice?

(10 char)

 

[Love]

Ok so ou guys think that in 50 years it would be world war 5 between Nitendo and Google?

 

[Horace]

well some people argue that it was oil that drove the whole iraq conflict...
they just wanted that extra oil resource.
i think us fruit corps have also meddled in Honduras and other banana republic conflicts.
a corporation driven war in the future wouldnt surprise me one bit.