Give the lanun the ability to create water tiles

[Honor]

... via a tier 3 water sphere spell. If FoL and the elves have it through nature magic, why not Lanun? Lanun are at least as terrain type dependant as the elves and their tree-worshipping religion.

edit: i guess we also need a level 3 earth spell to reverse the effects of this spell if necessary.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

I dunno, does that really make sense? Trees are self sustaining.. plant a tree and leave it.

Pour a glass of water on the ground and its gone in a few seconds. I had suggested having the spring spell actually create a spring (maybe even create a river from it) but nothing ever came of that.

Anyway, if you think about it, creating water tiles should really be an earth sphere spell since you're moving earth to do it.

 

[MacGyverInSpace]

A canal improvement would be nice...

 

[Forral]

Isn't the main reason there's not too many Terraforming spells around because they give the player too signifcant advantages, considering that the AI would very rarely, if at all, be capable of using it intelligently and effectively?

 

[Verdian]

I enjoyed the old method of creating Pirate Bays, which kind of accomplished this goal: sacrfice a worker to create a water tile next to the ocean with a Pirate Bay in it. That way you could build a city one tile away from the ocean and still connect it to the water. I am not sure why it was changed to sacrificing work boats.

 

[Valkrionn]

I enjoyed the old method of creating Pirate Bays, which kind of accomplished this goal: sacrfice a worker to create a water tile next to the ocean with a Pirate Bay in it. That way you could build a city one tile away from the ocean and still connect it to the water. I am not sure why it was changed to sacrificing work boats.

Mostly because people were horribly abusing it by sacrificing strings of workers to cut off a chunk of a continent, and other fun little exploits.

 

[Verdian]

But you could not build them right next to each other, there had to be three spaces in between, much like it currently works.

 

[Tyrs]

it used to be that they couldn't be built next to another of the same level, so all you had to do was wait for it to upgrade. I think that was fixed though

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The thing was that you could pillage a cove and build another one right next to coast it created, thus allowing a (slow and tedious) process of terraforming that no other civ could perform. If taken far enough, you could turn the whole world into water. I personally just liked separating continents so that I could liberate more vassal states and demand their mana though.


I tend to think that making them be bActAsCity land improvements might be a better solution. It would mean you'd have to guard them carefully with land units though, as ships stationed there could easily be destroyed. (Hmm...I could probably also set up some sort of a <PythonOnMove> function to protect the ships though. Just blocking hostile Lanun land units from entering would be easy but probably be too much, as it would make ships there invincible. Maybe limited duration land units with strength based on the ships there could be spawned to defend the coves?)



I'm thinking that in my version Tsunami will be a level 3 water spell that has a chance to turn effected tiles into water temporarily. Earthquake (which might move from a Runewarden to an Earth III spell, or might be triggered when an Earth Elemental dies) might also have a chance to randomly raise or lower terrain. ICe spells may block off water with sea ice (I'd probably have to edit the SDK and see if I can get temporary features working), or maybe even turn it to snow so units can cross. (I may also look into letting promotions allow units to enter the ice feature, both for ships and for land units who could not enter water otherwise. This will too require SDK work that might be beyond me though.)

 

[Blakmane]

ages and ages ago, the water 3 spell did actually have a (small) chance of changing a tile to water. They changed it because it was abused constantly to screw over the AI/make unfair choke points etc.

 

[Verdian]

They changed it because it was abused constantly to screw over the AI/make unfair choke points etc.

Now we have the Erebus map for that.

I remember when the Water 3 spell (Tsunami) always caused water to appear on the tile because Kael forgot to change the value from 100% while he was testing it. Being able to destroy a city (even on a small chance, when the spell was working correctly) with one spell is way to strong, and I doubt it will be coming back.

I do not think the Lanun need to be able to terraform to water. A player just needs to choose city locations carefully. The Lanun are the best in the sea, but they are not so terrible on land that such a difficult mechanic needs to be (re)added.

edit: MC, why not have your Tsunami spell create temporary swamps instead? That seems fitting without being really strong, and probably easier to add.

 

[Mortenart]

... via a tier 3 water sphere spell. If FoL and the elves have it through nature magic, why not Lanun? Lanun are at least as terrain type dependant as the elves and their tree-worshipping religion.

edit: i guess we also need a level 3 earth spell to reverse the effects of this spell if necessary.

I agree 100% with this. I really miss the old Tsunami spell's ability to terraform the map. It added a whole new level of strategy to the game. Admittedly, the AI were at a major disadvantage here, but when the old spell was around, it seemed like the AI was so much tougher, and Tsunami was often my last defence against the rampaging hordes. I'll never forget saving my last major city from stacks of Luchuirp invaders, cutting them off just as they were about to overrun me, watching them seethe from across the water as my last defenders cheered the heroic mage that saved them. Good memories..

 

[Fafnir13]

...or might be triggered when an Earth Elemental dies...

That has got to be the coolest idea I've read on this forum in a while. I mean, the imagery I'm getting in my head from it is fabulous. Kudos to you, good sir.

 

[Mortenart]

I'm thinking that in my version Tsunami will be a level 3 water spell that has a chance to turn effected tiles into water temporarily. Earthquake (which might move from a Runewarden to an Earth III spell, or might be triggered when an Earth Elemental dies) might also have a chance to randomly raise or lower terrain. ICe spells may block off water with sea ice (I'd probably have to edit the SDK and see if I can get temporary features working), or maybe even turn it to snow so units can cross. (I may also look into letting promotions allow units to enter the ice feature, both for ships and for land units who could not enter water otherwise. This will too require SDK work that might be beyond me though.)

I love these ideas too!

 

[Blackmantle]

Saying it was because people abused it is just a misconception.

A classic example of community-made gossip which circulates out of control is accepted as truth shortly afterwards.

Players contrary to popular belief are not wholeheartedly evil + playing the game and using the mechanics is not bad behavior. (Read Kael's comments on the matter to get the picture of what is the teams stance.)
Also the FFH2-team is not! a defenseless, poor and clueless bunch open to abuse.
And last but not least in FFH2s case players are also playtesters right now. So players taking features to their limits and reporting the results is desirable, not problematic in any way (might! be if done after Ice is finished when the game is leaving beta or if not reported what the result is...).


It was changed mainly for the simple fact that the AI couldn't have been taught! how to use it (as opposed to: couldn't use it in the past or at present...) in any! sensible way or timeframe (as per comment from Kael.).
And that is a more serious and sound reason than any problems with balance could ever be. (since completely inept AI doesn't really mean quality or long-term fun to anyone unlike an unbalanced game which might appeal to some players more or less and isn't a problem for the AI by default...)
All other possible / percived problems if anything have been not the decisive ones.
If you do a bit of research on that one you can verify that all for yourselves in the bug-thread of the version prior to the change of pirate coves.

Otherwise i would agree with the OP and hope for the old coves coming back or some other way of meaningful terraforming of Land to Water for the Lanun.
But given above premise it just seems not a very good and sensible idea of use for the teams time...
(if any mod-modder would try I'm sure it would be appreciated by any Lanun players who whould like to not be limited to a rare few map-types.
But expect a lot of work if it is desirable to be accomplished in a good way. Including the AI being able to grasp it.)

I still think the Lanun have suffered quite a bit (in spite of the improvement to coves (which have imo unfortunately been nerfed again a bit shortly after improving them) and the implementation of Herons throne wonder...
Which btw. are a rather obvious sign that the old coves have not been completely unbalanced in the teams view either, otherwise some compensation for their axing wouldn't had to be put in.) but there seem to be many who disagree...
So quite a considerable part of the community seems to like the changes and be content+ with the new Lanun (which is surely what the team was aiming for so i have my doubts they would fiddle with it further. Given that Ice phase is growing closer at hasty pace...).

So its modmodders duty now if anything.

@ Blakmane: If I'm not utterly mistaken Tsunami was changed for the very same reason mainly (AI-ineptness in its use and coping with it + unreasonable time to get it to use it in a sensible way.) not so much it being unbalanced by default (Tier 3 spells need by rather extreme for them to be completely axed instead of reworked for balance-reasons. Read: meteor-swarm.).


On topic of citadels acting as cities, i for one think that a mini-modmod who does this (including it putting back their use at hooking up resources but! teaching the AI to not! use it on mana and for stationing their ships in them (or having it just hook up non-mana resources and the AI understanding it.) is badly needed.
I can very well understand the reasons why it isn't in the main mod though but can't picture them as very big problems for experienced players who opt that feature in.
But i am confident that something like this will come into being (even separated from other modmods which i hope, so it can be used separately or in combination with those at will...)
And with Ice fast approaching there is no big danger anymore that those modifications would be outdated anytime soon...