GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[Bede]

So far, so good.....

The core looks fine and Old Persia look fine, a little terrain tuning maybe and pay close attention to where the workers are working and what contribution their labor will make.

Next player needs to look to the west. There are some changes thatcould be made (see tutorial above). There is a lot of room for increased gpt and net income to be gained in those towns, and several ways to do it. Think setttlements and water....

There are also beaucoup trading opportunities and money in the treasury. Be aggressive in acquiring luxuries as the reduction in the entertaiment budget will be well worth it.

Is there ever a good reason to strengthen an opponent with luxury sales or gpt purchases?

And can you guide the AI research path by canny knowledge sales?

BTW, you only need 1000 in the bank for Wall Street to deliver its greatest benefit.

So, next exercise:
Domestic: Where and how and why to spend the treasury?
International: Which nation do you want to strengthen and why? How will you influence the research choices?

 

[KayEss]

Before I forget, I have a question - is it worth building settlers to save up and put back into cities when they hit the 12 pop limit? Normally I will try to build a worker as they are immediatly useful, especially in the run-up to railways, but sometimes it seems to me to be better to build a settler - if they can be built quickly and the city is already at 12 with overspill food.

Is this good, or bad or just a bit stupid?

 

[Bede]

Never thought about it.
So here goes:

If they can be built quickly using shields you will be removing up to 6gpt from income for a unit that costs support for however long you inventory it.

Based on that and the contribution a new town makes to unit support costs in any government other than Commnism or Despotism, I think it is a costly tactic.

 

[KayEss]

If they can be built quickly using shields you will be removing up to 6gpt from income for a unit that costs support for however long you inventory it.

Based on that and the contribution a new town makes to unit support costs in any government other than Commnism or Despotism, I think it is a costly tactic.

I think that if the city is already maxed and the food is full then they'll go straight to size 11 when the settler is built so you're losing less gold than that (although there is still the support cost).

You also get a benefit in that the moment the city manages to get its hospital it will go to size 15 (the one growth when you get the hospital and the two from adding the settler back in).

It certainly does seem to make more sense to make a worker instead - at least they'll be busy building railroads.

 

[Bede]

Ahhh, now I understand. But since I rarely build hospitals (build pattern is usually too tight, then it just never occurred to me.

 

[KayEss]

Ahhh, now I understand. But since I rarely build hospitals (build pattern is usually too tight, then it just never occurred to me.

Now that's one of those throw-away comments that carries all sorts of implications...

 

[Bede]

Now that's one of those throw-away comments that carries all sorts of implications...

Let us reason together:

The received wisdom has rejected Optimal City Placement for a couple of reasons:
1) too much terrain unworked for two thirds of the game;
2) defensive difficulties when cities are more than three roaded tiles apart.

The build pattern you will see at Emperor and above is based on a knight's move
cxxx
c
or c
x
x
x c or a variation of that. This pattern minimizes overlap and as you can see each town is not more than a single foot unit's distance apart.

Here is a dotmap from an active Demi-god game:

And the town northwest of the capitol was moved one northeast by settler abandon later on.

The western towns are a little further apart as the Iro have an early fast mover UU so the three tile distance was less important and the terrain SW of the capitol was not comfortable for a tighter build.

As the empire expands past the OCN (Optimal City Number) you can even begin to build closer than shown above as you need no more than 3 irrigated fields to support a population of 6, half of whom are specialists (tax collectors).

There is at least one disadvantage to this pattern however. If the AI starts to steamroller you with fast moving units thay can roll up like a spring-loaded window shade.....

At any rate, this build pattern does not leave much room for more than pop12 in the core and 6 in the outer reaches.

My experience suggests that hospitals are expensive to build and cause more problems than they solve when built, unless one is "milking" a game for histographic score.

 

[Mistfit]

So, next exercise:
Domestic: Where and how and why to spend the treasury?

Ok again it's been a while since I've looked at the save and I'm at work right now so I will speak in general terms.

In a game such as this I'd save the treasury and build it as much as possible to incase we need to do deficit spending in the industrial age for research. THe AI will become less and less useful in reasearch capacities. The relm looks good right now. As Bede said we need to concentrate on the Eastern part of our island with some fishing villa's. And short rush needed improvements to the ex-Persian lands.

International: Which nation do you want to strengthen and why? How will you influence the research choices

IIRC our largest trading partner on the other continent is France. Even though they will be useless as research partners, they will still be usefull as trading partners. The only way to keep up the 4 turn research is to trade, trade, trade. Russia and Germany can be kept happy to bring them through to the free trchs at age change.

 

[coletite]

I hope no one minds my butting in....

As far as a large surplus of extra cash, it seems the big items would be rushing improvements to get a jump on infrastructure (banks and universities), rushing units to respond to a threat (or to strike a sudden attack on a neighbor) and to purchase luxeries. With an empire that size, luxeries would probably be the most valuable, although banks and universities would give the economy/science a push as you enter the indy age.

Of course, purchasing lux can strengthen an opponent. If you want to avoid that, then instead of ammassing immense wealth, you could raise the lux slider- benefiting you and you only.

 

[Bede]

How you purchase knowledge or luxuries from another nation makes a difference as to whether it strengthens an opponent or not....

So, what is the difference and what impact might it have?

BTW, here is a roster check:

SolarKnight - up
Mistfit - on deck
KayEss
Viper275

 

[coletite]

If you give GPT, the AI will use it to further research.

 

[Mistfit]

If you give GPT, the AI will use it to further research.

IMHO on monarch we will not need to pay for anything for the remainder of the game unless it is for lux's, and that is only if we decide to pay for luxeries with cash instead of techs.

If someone could give ideas on how that can work well I'd be appreciative because I typically find myself draining the AI at every chance during the late game. I've never set them up with GPT with the thoughts of them researching more. Does this work?

 

[GenMarshall]

If you give GPT, the AI will use it to further research.

lurker's comment: Its true, the AI would defenately use that GPT for there advantage and would bost there science rate. I would not recomend giving GPT to them unless youre ahead in the tech race

I knew that I would get the delurker tags right the 3rd time

 

[Bede]

I first witnessed this indirect effect in one of the GOTM's (I've forgotten which one) and have seen it in other games (Gang of Four-FRFR is one).

It is well known that the AI does not use the luxury slider, instead it uses entertainers to manage happiness. Anytime you provide luxuries to the AI for a lump sum payment the clowns go back to work, which increases the AI cash flow. The increased cash flow usually flows into the AI science budget if the nation is not currently at war. If it is a warmonger the increase willl be used for unit support and their army will grow.

Another indirect trading effect I've noticed is the impact of providing resources. If the resource allows the building of a military unit the AI's cash hoard diminishes as the AI will upgrade or rush a unit that requires that resource. Resource trades for gpt will sometimes have a really unfortunate effect if the counter party is low on cash as they will spend down their treasury upgrading/rushing troops and the next thing they will do is declare war because they can no longer make the payment.

So it appears to work like this: luxury trades will boost the economy of the AI and thier science output will increase. Resource trades will cause a recession as the AI increases cash and gpt spending on military and science output will decrease.

I have never attempted to quantify this and my evidence is anecdotal but I have seen these effects often enough to believe that such is in fact the case.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Nice summary Brother Bede. Where it gets sticky is at the higher levels where you have no choice but to either buy a tech or steal a tech. While stealing can save you a lot of money, it can also get you in a heap of trouble. My rule of thumb has been to steal when I am ready for war, or desparate. Buying techs only seems to fuel greater AI science advances as Bede has very nicely explained.

 

[Bede]

Okay, listen up!

The training staff (hereafter referred to as GoFII) have been plotting and have come up with the following exercise. For them, not you, so you can sit back and enjoy the show.

There has been some discussion on manipulating/guiding/influencing the AI so your servants the GoFII decided to see what could be done in forty or so turns and then document the results for all to see.

We are going to appoint a Good Witch and Bad Witch from among our opponents and then do what we can to alter the relative position of each as measured by Firaxis score, knowledge gained and cash postion. In essence we will be trying to help the Good Witch and ruin the Bad, without leaving our continent.

Watch this space for further developments.

BTW - SK you're up....so

 

[Mistfit]

Looking forward to this! I've always wondered what could be done to help out an opponent. It always seems to be a problem on the easier levels that they lag so far behind they are not helpful during the latter stages of games.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

There was a very cool epic over on RBCiv that was based on this premise. I'll have dig up a link.

 

[KayEss]

Some practical advice would come in very handy on a Warhammer PbEM that I'm doing right now. My opponent shares his continent with two others. He's already running into culture problems with one of them. Anything I can do to help them would be great

 

[Bede]

There was a very cool epic over on RBCiv that was based on this premise. I'll have dig up a link.

Here's the link to the Realms Beyond Epic Reports for the "Balance of Power" game:

http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/epic41results.html

And here's the first twenty:

(Took twenty as that sychronizes with any trade deals)

The Gang O'Three (Harpo, Groucho and Beppo) does Geopolitics

Looking at the histographs Lizzie is the Candidate for Bad Witch, Joanie (I know Bugs is pleased by this) the Good Witch, and Germany and Russia the counterweights.

So what I'm looking for is a catfight where Lizzie is in the middle and Joan is protected and supported. And Lizzie has given us the perfect excuse with that rotten Reading in the NW.

I am going to make a few changes in build orders Copernicus to Salamanca as science output is a function of local gpt and Salamanca will deliver a greater benefit than Oil Springs from that perspective. Niagra Falls is a good choice for Newton's. After making a few more adjustments, turning up the research rate and starting temples in all the cities that lack cathedrals....we have Sistine's so might as well make use if of it and get some cathedrals down, try for an immediate tech steal from England and Phase I is under way.

Reading falls immediately to a knight from Gaygaahe.

Ship the Russians iron for an alliance against Liz. Bismarck will take her on for nothing, we'll see how long that lasts....

Ship some lux to Joanie for cash, not gpt payments, then trade her Econ straight up for Music Theory.

Time to watch the show...so I rush a couple of privateers out of the west coast town and sail them out to the east coast of the other continent.

By 930 Joans treasury has grown back to where it was when this started so I ship her some more lux for cash

By 960 Joanies's treasury has grown even more (184g from ~20) so sell her some more lux...again for cash.

Not much else going on from 960 to 1020. Joan's treasury keeps growing, England has lost a city to the Germans. I'm a little disappointed in the performance of the Russians.

I am going to go ahead and play the next ten as that is what it will take for the bulk of the transactions to expire.

BTW, there is an Easter Egg in the game, but you'll get to discover it for yourself, no spoilers from me.

Somewhere along in here I load some elite knights into a galleon and go leaderfishing at a little pop1 English town on the island in the SW. The town burns but no leader appears. But that is the only military adventure.

I've zipped all the autosaves and the final 1120AD save here for all you analytical types.

Pictures and detailed analysis to follow but in general the plan seem to be working. Joanie's spending on research has gotten more productive as her citizens go back to work the fields. She self researched or purchased Metallurgy/Physics/Magnetism and bought Miitary Tradition from Bismarck. Her histograph score has increased its growth rate relative to England and her culture rate is also rising relative to England's.

France's culture growth in 20- 2478
England's in the same period - 1660

Histograph change 520 to 920
France +130
England +177

Histograph Delta 920-1120
France +78
England +67

There are other metrics to apply and I have MapStat screens for selected years which will be in the next post.

(And yes I automated all our workers since I didn't want to mess with them)

The Saves

Warning: it's a big file (2.8m)

scout or Bugs, you want to move it to the next level?

@Mistfit, since Solar Knight hasn't been heard from would you want to take it forward from KayEss's 920 save?