GK2- The Training Day Experiment

Denyd: Is probably a version issue. I can get it to work on Vin, but haven't tried it on C3C. You described doing everything I do as well.

Edit: Crap, come back and already on the top of the page again.:(

Oh well... ALERUM!

Tag, you're it.
 
Alerum at the top again...just like old times. In fact, you'll find the first time his post was on the top of the page was on page 34, Apr 25, 2004!!!!!!! Pushing a year...

Okay here are my results.

Spoiler :
Interesting. I opened the save last night with the thought of trying to get all the gold and all three first-tier MA techs. The interesting part is that all the civs are scientific and they all have MM. I decided to sleep on it and try this morning.

Goals:
1. Get all the gold.
2. Get at least one second tier MA tech.

Pre-turn

Drop science slider to 0.
MM cities, hire 4 scientists.
MM comes in next turn even though slider is at 0.

Trades
Persia Poly for 192 gold
Greece Poly for 17 gold
Germany Poly for 2 gold
Ottomans Poly for 10 gold

I'm skipping the Babylons until I press enter.

IBT

MM comes in.
At science screen go into big picture.

Trades
Ottomans Monotheism and 17 gold for Monarchy
Germany Engineering for Monarchy and Republic
Babylon 17 gold for Currency
Babylon gift Poly
Greece WM for 4 gold
Persia WM for 4 gold


Hmmm...I can't seem to figure out how to get a second tier tech.

Final stats.
923 gold / 37 gpt
I get all the first tier MA techs and all the gold.


I'm a little disappointed that I couldn't get a second tier tech. I tried the F6 trick at the New Age screen, but it wouldn't let me get to the advisors. If I continued from there I could get to the advisors, but I'd already received my free tech. I still think there's a way to do it, but I couldn't figure it out.
 
In theory and with a lot of luck the best result should be all the gold, full world maps, the three first level middle age techs and if someone can figure out the correct order of keystrokes, a random second level tech.

I tried this a couple of times when I created the scenario and I was never able to get the final piece.
 
I think it's a software issue. Load the save into C3C and it should be possible to swing a 2nd-tier tech: I've done it once so it must be possible again!
 
I just saw that DaveMcW has actually updated his article to mention that it doesn't work in PTW. So it's not something (keystoke sequence) we are missing. It does work in Civ III and in C3C.
 
I guess it would help in Vanilla in that you could gift the AI to the MA, then trade for Monotheism, giving you another MA tech as the bonus. Looks like getting the 2nd level tech is only valid on C3C.

All in all still a solid way to get most of the level one techs and cut 8-10 turns of research at each level (that could potentially cut up to 30 turns off a launch date).
 
...and I think it would be a good exercise now to see how quickly we can launch. One of the biggest problems in my games is getting bogged down late in my games and not finishing off wins quickly.

I suspect we need to maximize productivity, research and pre-builds (I'm not good at this) while staying effiecient in our turns.
 
Prioritizing builds and productivity is dependent upon the victory condition you choose and the earlier in a game you can decide that the better. Once that is decided then you know what to focus on, ie. military power or research/culture strength, and hopefully not allow you to get bogged down.

If you read some of the spoilers in the GOTM threads you'll see that a lot of players start the game with a desired victory condition in mind and all their effort is put into that goal.
 
The 50BC Save

Spoiler :

Trading Exercise

Opened embassies with everybody to see if contact information was of any value. Nope.

Everybody else knows Map Making so first thing I do is trade Currency (our most devalued knowledge) for it to Babylon.

And get this deal:



And Feudalism is our free tech.

Shut off research so we have some buying power if needed then test pricing for Polytheism starting with the wealthiest, Persia.

And the bid from Persia:



The others lack sufficient coin to even bother with right now.

And Xerxes draws Feudalism as well...

Babylon trades his maps for Polytheism and he draws Engineering.

Bismarck will pay 2g and maps for Polytheism.....and he too gets Engineering.

The Greeks pay 17g and maps for Polytheism....and he gets Monotheism, so every first level MA tech is out there and the Russians are up Monarchy and Republic on everybody and have most if the money in the world. Since everybody knows everybody else Polytheism is only worth 10g to the Ottomans and he is probably pretty close to researching it himself anyway. Should have started with him, I guess.

And at this point I realize that I wasted the opportunity to pull a second tier knowledge as the freebie.

So I start the second round by picking up the most expensive and the only monopoly of the first level MA techs, Monotheism from Greece. He wants both governments for it, though but I still have enough leverage for Engineering, so done.

Pick up the rest of Osman's gold 17g for Monarchy. Then trade Republic to Hammurabi for Engineering.

Here is the position as of 70BC:




It will be interesting to see how the guys trade amongst themselves.

Ottomans pick up Republic, Greece gets Engineering, Persia gets nothing, Germany gets the Republic, Babylon gets Monarchy.

Now to see if I can do the second tier thing.
 
Gator Trader

Spoiler :


Since the F4 from Age Change is not accessible in PTW, I do my trading in the preturn

Preturn - 70BC
mm Smolensk entertainer to a scientist and lower sci level to 10%
TRADE: Currency to BAB for Map Making, Wmap & 17 gold
this puts us into the MA - we get Monotheism
TRADE: POLY to PER for Wmap & 192gold
PER now if MA and received ENGIN
TRADE: Monarchy & Republic to PER for ENGIN
gift BAB Polyetheism they enter MA and get ENGIN also
TRADE: Polytheism to GER got 2 gold, they enter MA and receive Monotheism
TRADE: OTTO Polytheism and Wmap for Wmap & 27 gold - they get Engineering
TRADE: Polytheism to GRK for Wmap & 17 gold - they get Feudalism
TRADE: Republic, Monarchy & Monotheism to GRK for Feudalism

I now have all the money and all 3 first tier MA techs.
set sci to 0% and leave the scientist in Smolensk
Hit enter

IBT - add 2 sections to Palace

Turn 1 - 50BC
GRK managed to trade for Engineering
TRADE: Republic to GER for Wmap and 8 gold - only to have all the gold (I would not make this trade in a real game)

So I end the exercise with 923 gold, all 3 first tier techs and tech leads as follows
GRK - even
GER - up REP & FEUD
BAB - up REP, MONA, MONO & FEUD
PER - up FEUD
OTTO - up REP & FEUD

I think there is actually 1 more gold that could go into the treasury, I think I forgot to chnage the clown in St. Petersburg to a taxman, which would have generated us 1 more gold.

and I have 1 turn of research completed towards Invention



Load the save in C3C, where the F4 is accessible from the Big Picture

was able to get all first tier and Theology plus all the gold

 
Spoiler :

Bede & Gator - I'm not sure how you could have gotten a second tier tech unless you had researched your last turn during the IBT, then gone to the trading screen trade the other civs into the MA, then then trade for their free techs then exit and get a second tier tech.

Please note, that I would have played it the same way as both of you gents. I'm not trying to rag on either of you.
 
This is what I got

Spoiler :


I fired a clown in St. Petersburg and the one in Smolensk got turned into a scientist. Turned science down to 10% to still get Map Making next turn.

Didn't do any trades. I want them to have another turn's worth of cash. I also didn't do any trades after I got the next era. I just went with whatever the computer suggested for everything and built some nice extensions on the palace.

Now for the trading:

Persia: They've got all the money and I want it. Polytheism for their world map and 196gp.
Babylon: They get Currency for 17gp and their world map. I gift them Polytheism.
Turkey: They won't settle for just Polytheism so I have to also give them the Rupublic for their world map and 29gp.
Greece: Will take Polytheism for world map and their 21gp.
Germany: World map and 3gp for Polytheism.

I got a free tech of Monotheism (as did Persia and Turkey). Of the others, Germany got Feudalism; and Greece and Babylon got Engineering.

Germany give me Feudalism for Monarcy and Republic and Babylon gives me Engineering for Rebublic and Monarchy.

At the end I have everybody's map, all of the gold (922gp) and not everybody else has all the ancient techs, but they do all have one in the next era. I have all of the first tier techs in the next era.

Babylon: I'm up Republic, Monarchy, Feudalism and Engineering.
Greece: I'm up Monotheism and Feudalism.
Turkey: I'm up Monarcy, Feudalism and Engineering.
Germany: I'm up Monotheism and Engineering.
Babylon: I'm up Monotheism and Feudalism.

 
@Bugs - That is exactly how I did it when I replayed it in C3C. It can't be done in PTW though.
 
Ladies and Gentlemen, it has been done! I beat our Training Day Game, via Space Race. Would you like to know more?

Spoiler :

Here's the basic stats.

Turns: 1350-1735
Score:5354
Happy: 1759.5
Content / Speciallist:143.3
Territory: 2191.4

History remembers us as Hiawatha the Magnificent.

CRPStats:
We have 61% of the land with a total of 75 cities.

Our total culture was 56,387. Salmanca was our highest city with 3207.

We had a total population of 984 citizens, but I was limiting growth at the end to get ZPS.

As an aside, I built the UN just to make sure no one took the victory from me by Diplo.

Here's the last save. To complete it with the same stats I got, you'll have to go "To The Big Picture" and switch Salamanca over to Plantary Party Lounge on the IBT after you get The Laser.

Alerum's End Game

Would you like to know more?

Spoiler :

Bascially I just kept going with a peaceful builder game. Around 1550AD, Germany attacked and I signed a MA with France against Germany. England followed suit by herself, and declared on her own accord. I took most of the southern part of Germany, France got Frankfurt, and some gems, I founded the city of Omega to take the last source of gems. England finally wiped Germany out when they signed an MA with France.

France and England never made it to Motorized Transport, but France did get Radio.

I found a nice little trick that you can sell one luxury at a time, and each luxury you can increase the price.... seems I got more money that way then selling it builk... may be worth a test.


Not much happened after I took Germany. With the massive worker force I had, I quickly had their former lands quickly improved 100%. There wasn't much need... as soon as we reached around 1700, I started getting the right techs, and had the core cities build up so the longest any of the compents took to build was 8 turns. Most took 3.

PM me if you have any more questions, at least until the game is beat officially.



Remeber, you must Serve to be a Citzen
 
Looks like all of those who tried the trading challenge beat me :cry:

I had very bad RNG luck on the tech selections. I managed to get Feudalism as my bonus tech, but everyone else got either feudalism or engineering. I did end up with all of the gold and completed world map. Since all of the AI's were in despotism, none of them had GPT to offer.

Alerum: Nice work :goodjob: A couple of questions / requests?

Did you use pre-builds to reduce the lead time on completions?

Did you complete any MA wonders beside Apollo & UN?

Did you notice any changed in tech pace?

Would you like to describe your beginning MA manuevering with the AIs?
 
denyd said:
Alerum: Nice work :goodjob: A couple of questions / requests?

Did you use pre-builds to reduce the lead time on completions?

Actually by the time I reached the space race my cities were so advanced that there was no need for them. It was very very easy to produce them since I had at least 10 cities that were producing 80-120 shields each. In fact, these cities were so advanced that they had every improvment built, and until I learned a new tech to give me new improvments, I just kept throwing out units to be disbanded in cities to get the sheilds spread around a bit.

denyd said:
Did you complete any MA wonders beside Apollo & UN?

I completed every MA wonder.;)

denyd said:
Did you notice any changed in tech pace?

Not in this portion of the game, but I've since kept playing from the last save before my win, and am trying to go for a histrograph win. I've been doing a very evil trick where I take all the GPT I can from selling backwater techs like Recyling, taking all their GPT and selling just 1 luxury to them every few rounds to make sure I get all their GPT I can. It has the effect of keeping them poor to prevent their researching, and if I keep them under 4 luxuries I've noticed they spend more on happiness then they do on research. But as for trading options... I actually didn't exerice them very much. I feel that with the lead we had on techs by that point it may actually hurt us instead of helping us to gift the other AIs to the same level as us... they could build a space ship before we did.:p

denyd said:
Would you like to describe your beginning MA manuevering with the AIs?

I would, but there wasn't much there. By the time I reached the MA, the AI was still trying to wade their way through the AI... In fact, the contiunation game I'm playing now is at around 1800AD, and France has just now entered the MA, and I finally gifted England Radio to get them there too. By that time I had already learned everything but Stealth.

By and large, this game was so well beat that it had the feel of one of my Regent games back before I came on CFC... only because of how well it was played, and the choice core that was built for us.:)
 
Did you use any of the turn-shaving tricks to improve your completion date, such as Tech Gifting & Big Picture production change in the game?

Did building the Internet or SETI help your research?

Did you build any research labs?

How did you manage the domination limit?

Did you do anything to encourage the AI to research a tech for you? Did it work?

What did you use for you pre-builds?
 
denyd said:
Did you use any of the turn-shaving tricks to improve your completion date, such as Tech Gifting & Big Picture production change in the game?
No, like I said felt I would have more competition to deal with if I gifted the AI... and there was such a wide birth between us and them that I played a bit sloppy in tech trading regards... I was more interested seeing how trading luxuries with the AI would affect things.

denyd said:
Did building the Internet or SETI help your research?
Internet is only on C3C so didn't get it here, but SETI, without question helped. I threw it into one city, which I won't name now, that was just loaded with cash and near the core, and when I built SETI it took off a full turn of research time. Was a major boon.

denyd said:
Did you build any research labs?
I build research labs in any city that had enough science to start with for it to be worth the maintance cost.

denyd said:
How did you manage the domination limit?
Simple... I built 2 new cities the whole time I played.;) That and limited population growth near the end... the histograph win will be more of a challenge, but if it's that way what I'll do is gift some worthless cities to the AI to get my territory down, and make workers and disbanding them if I don't need them.

denyd said:
Did you do anything to encourage the AI to research a tech for you? Did it work?
Not encourage but I left Advance Flight and... can't remember it's name - the one that gives you Marines...for the AI to research for me, but I always do that... worthless techs IMHO. Other then that, I kept the AI at least half a age beyond me the whole game, just to be safe.
What did you use for you pre-builds?[/QUOTE]
 
Just for the heck of it, I thought I'd post a bunch of things I've collected over the years.



AI warfare unit bonuses: At Monarch and above, the AI civs get extra offensive and defensive units when they start the game. These are the best units that the Civ could build at that time; usually these will be normal units (warrior, with archer or spearman if the civ knows the appropriate tech.) These can be unique units if those can be created at the start of a game by that civ.

AI non-military unit bonuses: The AI gets an extra settler at Deity level, and either one or two extra workers at the top two levels, respectively. (Note that if you look this up in the Civ3XEdit, the help file there helpfully has the actual unit type reversed.) In my view, the extra settler is one of the greatest bonuses the AI has at the Deity difficulty level. This gives the AI a huge jump at the start of the game, where a lot of games are decided.

AI unit support bonuses: This gives the AI civs the ability to have a lot of units without paying for them. At Deity level it's 16 free units to start and 4 extra for each city it has. A large percentage of the time the AI never even has upkeep costs at this level, even once it's a great sprawling Democracy.

AI government turns in anarchy: The AI gets no bonus for the lower three difficulty levels, and has to stay in anarchy just as long as a player would. At the higher difficulty levels it gets a nice bonus; at Deity level the max turns an AI civ stays in anarchy is 2, almost as good as being Religious.

AI cost factor: This determines the cost factor for AI growth, shields and research. The cost factor for players is always 10; the lowest difficulty levels give a bonus to the player, while the top three difficulty levels give a decided bonus to the AI.

AI to AI trade rate: The AI thinks it is getting "better deals" from other AI civs than it would from you, on every difficulty level. If you're playing a Regent game and one AI civ wants something from another AI civ that would normally cost 130, the first civ only has to be able to pay 100 to get it. In the words of the editor, "This rate directly affects the frequency and aggressiveness with which AI civs trade amongst themselves."

AI and player factors: These aren't factors where the AI can get a bonus, but they're on the same screen and deal with difficulty levels so I included them. It's all pretty basic stuff, although the last one is interesting, which determines how many cities you can make before you hit the higher corruption level. Higher difficulty levels lower this number, which is based on the optimal number of cities per world size which is also listed. In short, you have to make do with fewer cities on the higher difficulty levels unless you want to deal with more corruption. This is true for both the AI civs and for players; the number of cities that can be built before corruption kicks in is also raised (by 25% post-1.29, I believe) for civs which are Commercial.

The AI bonuses are quite strong at the higher difficulty levels, apart from the other ones mentioned elsewhere (knowing where all the units are, knowing where all current and future resources will be, etc.) The fun, of course, comes in beating it even with all these bonuses. Perhaps in the next rendition (or more likely by Civ X) we can play against an AI that is adaptive enough it won't need all these bonuses to beat humans.



Gold: The tile must not have any type of resource or luxury on it.

Maps: always available

Nothing: always available

Settler: Player must not have a settler (active or in production) or any unit with the Settle AI strategy.
Player must have less cities than (TotalCities / NumActivePlayers).

Mercenaries (skilled warrior): There must be a unit available to the Barbarians as well as the player and that unit must be able to be built (or have been built) by some player in the game.

Tech: Player must still be in Ancient Times.

Barbarians: Player must not have Expansionist trait. There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius. The player must have at least 1 city. The player must have at least 1 military unit. The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.

 
Great information, denyd! Thanks for that post!
 
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