GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Gengis Khan
Don't just say Poly, because that's what we've been saying

Poly, because I'm hoping we'll find another goody hut and pop Alphabet or Horseback Riding... (and because it's what we've been saying! )

I already posted my thoughts on the scouts... from here I build a warrior, because we're due for some barbarians... the scout to the NE can go assist with blockading if he doesn't find anything, and we don't really need scouts out all over the place (dang, I bet that sounded funny comin' from me, huh?)

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Using a piloting term, ratcheting your sliders down is great headwork and an excellent technique to master. I haven't mastered it yet. There is a fine line you walk sometimes in being able to meet your future commitments. I think the expert at maximizing the gpt available in a trade is Charis. He can pull some amazing stuff out. Check out his latest work in the RBC 13 Byzantine SG.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Using a piloting term, ratcheting your sliders down is great headwork and an excellent technique to master. I haven't mastered it yet. There is a fine line you walk sometimes in being able to meet your future commitments.

I ratcheted down the sliders just to see if I had some GPT to play with. If I did anything noteworthy, it was dumb luck, I assure you. I have a feeling my trade would put us close to that line on the committments.

I think the expert at maximizing the gpt available in a trade is Charis. He can pull some amazing stuff out. Check out his latest work in the RBC 13 Byzantine SG.

What is that they're playing, "Fall of Rome" in C3C? I've only played that one once, as a Barbarian tribe... a really good trainer for alliances. Not sure you can win that one as a barbarian without forming a few... the upgradeable Legionnaires in "Rise of Rome" are really cool, but I digress..

Scanning quickly, I caught one post by Charis. There are a couple of things that made it a little tough to take his stuff and transfer it to this situation:

1) All (or all but one) of the civs were known.
2) Whole different tech tree... a little hard to tell of the top of my head what was what, let alone what things are worth...
3) His writing style is a little hard to pick up at first...

One thing I did catch was how he sized up how much gold there was available in the known world. I will probably revisit that post and try to get a better handle on how he uses that information. It looks like it plays big when there's a "monopoly tech" on the table. Might come in handy when our "known world" gets a little bigger...

As for the trade I posted with Tokugawa, I don't think TW and BW can be had any cheaper. If we knew whether there was anybody on the other side of him or not, we'd have a better idea whether or not this would be a wise trade. Since we're nearing the end of the 'shelf life' for our first tier techs, my gut says this isn't a bad trade - especially since we'll get 2 techs and still be in a position to do the "40-turn Poly Gambit" that's been talked about so much.

...sure wish some of my classmates would step up to the blackboard....

 

[SolarKnight]

Ive just come back to m,y hometown from university, (travelled 130 miles, ill do my trade tomorrow when my pc is all set up and online (this is my parents pc, doesn't have civ installed )

 

[scoutsout]

...this is my parents pc, doesn't have civ installed )

Hey SK! I just thought of a way to make your future life better - introduce your future father-in-law to Civ!

 

[mad-bax]

I know this is a threadjack but you asked me to let you know when the SGOTM thread was up. If you want to play you can find it >>here<<

 

[Gengis Khan]

*looks around for Infoman*

Hmm, well I dropped him a PM yesterday. He also hasn't posted in a while so we'll skip him this round & when he turns up slot him back in.

As soon as you 3 agree on (or at least discuss a bit) your research/build plan scout can kick it off.

[please be as detailed as possible in your turn log, it helps us duplicate the turns easier & compare.]

 

[scoutsout]

Edit Two things conspire to keep me from the game this evening. First, I've got my CivIII all hosed up with GOTM mods, and I need to find the readme to tell me how to un-mod it. Second (more importantly) the wife is dragging me off to a party in about 15 minutes. So Infoman - if you get to this point in the next 5 or 6 hours and want to play your turns - make a quick post so I know to hold off when I get back....(end edit)

It seems to me that the research plan will be driven by the trading plan. Since I haven't seen anyone post a better deal, here are the trades I see:

Trade #1: We give 35 gold, 5 gpt, Pottery and Warrior Code for Bronze Working and The Wheel

Trade #2: We buy Bronze working for 25 gold straight up

Do we need to play with the tech trading some more?

Either trade leaves us the option of pursuing a 40 turn Polytheism gambit. Trade #1 gives us the option of pursuing Horseback Riding.

I think it's a bit early to even think about Mounted Warriors. Since Tech Trading is something I need to improve on, and Polytheism has some good trading potential... I like the 40 turn Poly Gambit for research.

Looking at the size of our city, I don't think it will be big enough for a settler factory, even with the granary. Unless someone tells me why I shouldn't, I'm for building a great, big, mighty, fearsome, three-hit-point... warrior. Maybe go hunt some barbs...

What do you guys think?

 

[shoguntaka]

Right now, we should be mostly concerned about expanding and not starting war yet. The japanese land is too far to start early war, it's a shame that we can't really maximisze the full potential of our UU

I think we should go for the 40-turns gambit on polythesis. Polythesis probably will be 2-fer tech, and possibly 3-fer, depending what our oppoenents had research. With polythesis, we probaby can get horseback riding and few other techs too.

The wheel has its monopoly price (the japanese is the only one who starts with it, and is overpriced), so let's wait for it to get devalued.

 

[gormdragan]

This is my first comment in this game (away in Gabon, Nigeria, France, Hongkong, and Singapore) so here goes.

We are 2 turns away from BW, so getting BW is unnessary.

I like to make a point, that The wheel allows the appearance of horses, which depending on the teams overall strategy (I am a prominently offensive-minded player), that may have unspeakable advantage. In early game, where tech popping still occurs, I don't think it is practical to expect to hold on the mysticsm monopoly. I would trade all our techs for the wheel, and push for the 40 turn poly. BW was not a good tech choice, as I am offensive-minded and spears are next to useless.

My 2 cents.

 

[scoutsout]

Preflight check - Yikes! Our wines now look like saltpeter, but still register as wines! Exit game, find another readme and some pcx files to shuffle. Time for a cold one. Find a Harp Lager in fridge. Back to my throne, change PCX files, restart game, world looks right now...on with preflight check.

We'll get Bronze Working in 2 turns at 90% research. With slider to 10%, looks more like 12 turns... Salamanca has a citizen on forest (note to self: MM when mine is complete).

3000 BC (Before hitting <Enter>) a little trading.

Trade Pottery, Warrior Code, 32 gold and 5 gpt to Tokugawa for Bronze Working and The Wheel. I'm more interested in buying time than Bronze Working. We can't sustain 90% research, and I want to start the "40 turn Polytheism Gambit". The Wheel isn't cheap, but I wanna see the ponies! Change Research queue from Iron Working to Polytheism.

Press <Enter>
=====
IBT - Nada
=====
Turn 1 - 2950 BC
E Scout N, NE
N Scout N, N
S Scout E
=====
IBT - Nothin'
=====
Turn 2 - 2900 BC
S Scout E, sees end of land
Worker, finishes job, NW to wine
MM citizen from forest to freshly mined BG
Salamanca will now grow in 2, not 3. Delay that order - MM citizen from UN-mined BG to forest. Salamanca now gets Granary in 2, grows in 3. Our Granary should be full when it's built now.
E Scout NE, NE, pops goody hut, gets Masonry. [dance]
N Scout NW, NW
=====
IBT - Nothing
=====
Turn 3 - 2850 BC
Worker - Irrigate
E Scout W, SW
N Scout N, N
S Scout W
=====
IBT - Japanese Settler crosses land bridge (dangit).
=====
Turn 4 - 2800 BC
Salamanca Granary > Warrior
Zoom to Salamanca: Granary is full, MM worker from Forest to BG, Warrior in 2, growth in 1, treasury at +1 gpt (we CAN afford the granary and the techs)
E Scout W, SW
N Scout..SW onto hill w/ horses
S Scout W
=====
IBT - Japanese settler moves E
=====
Turn 5 - 2750 BC
N Scout N
E Scout W, W
Zoom to Salamanca, 1 unhappy citizen. MM citizen from forest to wine for growth in 3 instead of 4. Treasury @ +3 gpt, slide Lux to 10%, now +2 gpt. Citizens: 1 smilin', 2 content, 1 gripin'.
S Scout W
=====
IBT - Japanese settler S
=====
Turn 6 - 2710 BC
Salamanca Warrior>Settler (?)
Hit F3, no barb warning, Warrior draws MP duty. Lux slider back to 0, 4 content citizens in Salamanca. Growth in 2, worker will finish irrigating wine in 1 turn...
Warrior - bump (skip)
E Scout W
N Scout W, S, now trespassing.
S Scout SW - Meets a Persian Warrior! Persia is down Wheel, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial. He's got 60 gold. He'll offer 17 for The Wheel, 50 for either Pottery or Ceremonial Burial. We sell him CB for 50 Gold.

=====
In Between Turns...
Tokugawa complains, we apologize, Jap settler SE, Persian Warrior S
Scoutsout finds a bottle of Guiness in the fridge, remembers a question he needs to ask a Brit or an Irishman to help settle a little debate... back to the game.
=====

Turn 7 - 2670 BC
S Scout SW
Warrior <Enter> (Zoom to Salamanca) +5 fpt! Settler in 5(?)
Wine is irrigated, nobody's gripin'. Bump Warrior
Worker - Build road
E Scout NW, NW
N Scout SW, SW
Wonder what Tokugawa will offer for Masonry?
=====
IBT - Persian Warrior moves N
=====
Turn 8 - 2630 BC
S Scout SW
Warrior <Enter> Settler in 3, growth in 3, 1 citizen gripin'. MM citizen from forest to un-roaded BG to E-NE. Grow in 2, settler in 3
Hit F1, lux to 10%; 1 smiling, 2 content, 1 gripin'.
F3, no barb warning, bump warrior.
E Scout N NW, sees Jap settler
N scout SW SW
=====
IBT Persian Warrior E, Jap Settler NW
=====
Turn 9 - 2590 BC
S Scout S, S
Warrior - F3 - no barb warning, bump
E Scout NW NW
N Scout S, S - sees yellow border!
<Ctrl-Shift-D> We have met the Zulu!
Shaka (Polite, no less!) Has +10 gold, down Masonry & Mysticism
Quick check
Tokugawa - +87 gold, down Masonry & Mysticism
Xerxes - +10 gold, down Pottery & Mysticism

Xerxes offers 10g for Pottery, we take it
Tokugawa offers 80 gold +2gpt for Masonry, we accept
Shaka offers 10 gold for Masonry, we take it.
=====
IBT Persian Warrior E, Jap Settler NW (What is he doin', hunting goody huts with a settler?)
=====
Turn 10 - 2550 BC
Worker finishes road to wines!
E Scout N NW sees warrior
N Scout S S (Trespassing)
Worker S
Warrior <Enter> 2 smilin, 2 hangin' out, 2 gripin'
MM Citizen from forest to grass to maintain +5fpt
S Scout SW

Welp, those are my turns. After transcribing my turn log you'll just have to take my word for it that you're glad you don't have to read the chicken-scratch in the notepad next to the keyboard.

We'll pop a settler next turn, we've got a nice pile of cash, and we seem to be in fair shape on techs. With Masonry shared among the 3 of us, we should see the AIs start dumping a bunch of shields into a wonder...

I'll post my screencap and savegame in a minute here...

 

[scoutsout]

Here's the Saved Game at 2550 B.C.

And here's the world as we know it:

 

[scoutsout]

I know it's bad form to post multiple time, but I wanted to go ahead and post my thoughts on the tech trades before the experienced players ask "What were you thinking?!?!?

On the opening round with Tokugawa, those thoughts are in the log.

On the round with Persia, Japan, and Zulu: I was mostly interested in getting a nice pile of gold from Japan, and getting at least a little mileage out of our first-tier techs. I probably should have dickered a little bit, but Tokugawa made a nice offer for Masonry, and Xerxes and Shaka didn't have to much to dicker with....

On that last worker move - I'm thinking we should mine and irrigate that Plains square. We need another square that produces 2 food and a shield. Working the regular grassland is not so great, but we can't work the forest without dropping below +5 food per turn...

I tried to micromanage Salamanca to get the settler pump going. If some of the better players could take a look at that and let me know if I missed something, I'd appreciate it.

Since we're about to have a settler, it'd probably be a good thing to revisit that "Where do you want to put our next city?" discussion....

 

[yoshi74]

You already expected some words to your trades.
I like the masonry-deal with japan. Its the fastest gpt deal i ever seen i think Hopefully he starts wasting some shields on the pyramids.
But the other two? Selling masonry to the zulu for 10g is nearly a gift. They wouldn't even get it for that from japan. And pottery to xerses for 10g will only speed him up.
The point is that money isn't that great for you at the moment. With min-research we pile up money anyway, and don't have much to spend it. I think the deal with japan was somewhere near the market price (don't know this exactly. Does someone knows a link where market prices for techs are listed). Anyway, gpt from an ai so early means they will research somewhat slower.
But the two 10g deals were not so good and should be avoided in the future.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by yoshi74
But the two 10g deals were not so good and should be avoided in the future.

Yeah, I had a feeling those were moves, but I had already made 'em. Got a little trade-happy, I guess. Especially that one to Persia, since he probably doesn't have contact with Zulu (who start w/ Pottery). Masonry to Shaka was more to get him to start dumping shields into a wonder... but you're right, not much risk Japan would've sold it to him for 10 gold. Who knows, maybe one of these guys will build the Great Library for us! <g>

How about the settler factory? Is it developing as it should? Does that first settler usually take more than 4 turns?

It'll be fun to see how much of the Zulu and Persian territory we can map with our scouts. Though it's early yet, an embassy with Shaka would be a good thing. He might make a nice ally against Japan...

Samurai to the north, Immortals to the south. This could get interesting...

On the 'next city' question: We haven't seen any barbs yet, so I'm for making a worker factory over there by that floodplain with wheat. If we can get some road work done early, it might help our settlers move a little better... speed up the spread of our empire. And if we're to settle and use that jungle, we're going to need a LOT of workers.

Next time I promise to play my turns in the afternoon, BEFORE a party...

 

[SolarKnight]

Just a quick note, my pc is sorted now and im online again

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by scoutsout

Samurai to the north, Immortals to the south. This could get interesting...

Heck... and here's me hoping you'd go for a diplo.

The selection of your rivals was designed to put you under some time pressure. Look at the UU's of the civs that are close to you.

You also know the civs that are not so close. Look at their UU's. When is everybody going to get them?

I haven't had time to look at the save, but it looks like the settler factory is fine. I'll play a few turns with it and see what it can do, but as long as you can dig a settler out every 4 turns and sometimes 5 with the odd mistake or unit thrown in then it's fine for monarch IMO.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by mad-bax
Heck... and here's me hoping you'd go for a diplo.

I have no qualms about going for diplo... after we push the Persians, Japanese, and Zulu into the sea!

What do y'all think about a Forbidden Palace in Ulundi?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Not always being able to get online on the weekends stinks. Yoshi voiced my opinion on the trades perfectly. The Masonry deal is great.

With constant monitoring in the early part of the game, you guys should be able to crank out settlers. Cities become power now.

It is time to start priorizing city sites. So a few questions for the team before Shogun plays:

1. What are going to be our city sites, and in what order should we settle them?

2. What are we going to do with our worker now?

 

[Gengis Khan]

Sorry guys, couldn't get on all day yesterday. Such is the pains of a thankless career in ass-kissing

I'll duplicate the turns shortly(ie now), and then once everyone chimes in with thier $.02 we'll be good to go.