GK2- The Training Day Experiment

@ Team: Have a look at this dotmap and tell me what you think. There are a couple of options, depending on how tight we want our city placement.

The Red dot is at distance 4, and is my candidate for the next city site. It looks like a good place to build units, and also a good "jumping off" point to expand towards Japan. I know this will eventually crowd a city built on the Green Dot (which Shogun and I agree is a good spot for a city) but I propose that we build units there until we get more cities going, then build a barracks, then build nothing but units until we've settled our continent. At some point I would expect to abandon this city to allow room for Niagra Falls and the "Green Dot" city to grow.

Next in line are some distance 7 cities. We could either build 3 cities on the yellow dots, or 2 cities on the blue dots. Note that one tile is occupied by a blue and a yellow dot. The purpose of these cities is to "establish the frontier" with Japan. The white dot is the second canal city, distance 10.

What do you all think?

NW_Expansion_Dotmap1.jpg
 
I think you guys have a couple of options here. But I would priorize getting white dot as quickly as you can, whether that is with a intermediate city you can decide. I would also consider taking three warriors and running a block with them to give yourselves more time to get the city sites.

Does everyone know what I mean by a block?
 
No i dont know what you mean by a block,(darn my n00bism)but I also agree with the white dot,but if were going to put a city there,I recommend two options.We could build a city on the red dot(after the white dot),or we could go for the yellow dot to the left side of our continent.We then would have a coastal city,which is always good.There is that blue/yellow dot to the right but if were going to put a city in the white dot,it would be a little close to it.
 
Nick: Welcome to the team! Feel free to ask any questions you have & we'll be glad to help out.

[edit- A block is barricading an enemy unit/units (normally a spear/settler pair) so they either can't move, or have to turn around & take a longer route. This can buy you time to get to an important site.]

ControlFreak: Very sorry to see you go. I'm thinking about buying internet access for you for a couple months just so we can keep you around.;) Thanks for all the help & hardwork, I'm sure we'll meet again & this SG will still probably be going strong when you start work & have access again.:lol:

Especially thanks for that list, I'm going edit it into the first post when I get back. I know that took awhile. :thankyou:


Everyone: why not just change Niagra or Grand to a scout then running him up to sit on the choke & block the pass?
 
Thanks GK,i greatly appreciate it.You all have been a great support.Anyway in fact I do have a question,I think I know what a choke point is,a point where theres only one direction you can go because of how narrow it is.But when you say change a citys production to a scout,and running up to the choke point,I dont understand that because theres more then 1 choke point to the north.Theres japans Tokyo and the spot across from the lake to the right of it.Who exactly are we trying to block,because if we block off the choke point thats to the right,Japan can still move through tokyo,correct me please.:help:
 
@ Nick: You're on the right track - we will need several units to box Japan in.

@ Gengis: I see only one big problem with Scouts at this stage: Barbarians.

Back to "catching up" in another thread...
 
Yeah!I'm on the right track.Im feeling mighty special today.Im puttin on my lucky underware and walking out the door with some confidence!seriously now,what kind of rating does the scout have.I know it has a movement rating of 2 i think,but what about defese and offense.If they dont have any then I suggest we send a archer up there,kinda in the middle of them all,and if theres a barbarian,we go kill him.Hes kinda like the life guard of the scouts.We could use one or 2 of them,I dont know the game itself really but if we had HBR and horses,we could send a Horseman up there.Becsause of the horsemans movement bonus,it would get to the barbarian quicker to save the scouts.The high offense rating of 2 also helps a bit.
 
Scouts have no offensive or defensive value. They can be used to block only because it's an act of war to attack one.

In this game, we won't have "Horsemen", we'll have Mounted Warriors (MW), which are the Iroquois' Unique Unit (UU). The MW is basically a horseman with an attack strength of 3.

Unfortunately, we don't yet have Horseback Riding which is the tech needed to build MWs. (We have The Wheel, which allows us to "see" where the horses are.)

At this point we are probably best served by building Warriors. We need numbers more than anything. Warriors can be upgraded to Swordsmen, once we learn Iron Working. (The Warriors will need to be moved to a city with a Barracks to do upgrades...)

Your Archer suggestion is not a bad one, just a little early. We will probably build a few for barbarian control at some point after we get a couple more productive cities going...
 
I wrote this yesterday but the forums were down. Some of it may not follow after reading your most recent posts

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Some immediate decisions that need to be made.

1. What are your next two city locations.
2. What are your worker priorities.
3. What will you next tech to research be.
Next City
IMHO City Number 4 in Shogun's Dotmap should be the next priority (See the handy-dandy Cross-Reference for a link). EDIT: Scouts Green Dot. The horses can wait because you don't plan on building any right now. The NW city proposed by scoutsout's dotmap (below Shogun's) EDIT: Red Dot in the map just above is in the middle of a bunch of plains and will have trouble growing on its own. The greener pastures on the NE pennisula, while good for growth, do not help transporting units towards Japan.

What we need is 2 things, as many bonus shields, fast to improve and strategically located. The only BG we have is in the green dot, unless you stretch for the blue dot. I'm not a fan of out expanding your supply lines. I think you will see a Japanese city near the white choke within the next 5 turns. (Read the turn logs, a settler left Jap Cap heading east.)

Founding a city N,N,NW of the capital will have it's own BG that can be mined, river plains tiles that can be irrigated (faster than mining the grass in the NE for same 2f,1s). Note that you can't get units from the capital to this city in one turn but they can get there in two turns with one more roaded tile. You can road the plains directly west of the city or the BG SE of the city. Both tiles are important to be improved for this city anyway and should be the priority.

Another plus for this city is that you can steal the cow AND the wines if you ever want to shift your capital away from settler production (like to build a market for more commerce, or to build some quick military, while letting the new town grow). Lots of MM possibilities here. It can steal the BG MINE as soon as the capitol gets its third BG mined.

EDIT: About Red Dot. The only thing I like about it is it's got a FP for growth. (See Worker Farm, it will get to use it 2 out of 3 turns.) After that, it's pretty bad. First, it has no 2f tiles. Needs irrigation to keep going. It's still two turns from the capitol. It doesn't help with the road to the north because you'd have to spend a lot of turns roading the hill or mountain. It's a b*tch to defend as its in a valley surrounded by high ground. The AI can sit units up there and never come down until the town is taken. I definitely dont want this town until we have pushed our borders farther north. We want to be able to stand on the hills and attack into the grassland. Having our borders around the grassland will slow the AI units in our killing field.

Worker Farm
I've been trying to figure out how Niagra will get us a three turn worker farm without a granary (and without a courthouse). I am going to make the assumption that we lose the 3rd and 6th shields due to corruption. All FPs are irrigated, the one plain is mined. W=wheat, FP=Flood Plain,F=Forest,P=Plain,C=City.
Start Size 6, no shields, no food: C,W,FP,FP,FP,F,P.
Thats +6f, +4s (1+0+0+0+0+2+2-1corruption).
Turn 1, 6f, 4s.
Turn 2, 12f, 8s: Switch Plain to fourth FP. Thats +8f, +2s (Grow in 1, Worker in 1)
Turn 3, 20f grow>add Plain. (1+0+0+0+0+2+2-1corruption) 12s, build Worker, shrink to size 6. MM back to start condition if needed, Repeat.

That means Niagra needs all 5 FP irrigated/roaded and the Plains mined. (41 worker turns) Having the Forest roaded would be a nice bonus since it's used every turn.

Worker Turns
I think workers built in Niagra should stay there until it's got all 41 worker turns done. FP Irrigation has the priority. Being religious and having all this food, at worst case scenario, the city can build a temple for 10 turns and whip it to keep growth in check, but I'd rather build a worker in ten turns than waste pop on a whip and useless temple. Unless at size 6, this town should be working only FP. (No negative food tiles. It's strength is its food.)

Capitol is about done. It could use a road on the forest it uses during expansion turns, just for the added commerce. That's low priority in my opinion, unless it helps unit movement.

Grand Rapids needs its FP irrigated. After that it has three plains tiles to improve. I haven't tested this but my thinking is, since we lose the third and probably sixth shield to corruption the first plain should be irrigated (that plus center tile =2s), then the last two mined. When using 1 plain, it doesn't matter if its irrigated or mined because the extra shield is lost to corruption. When using two plains, they should both be mined, because 5 dropping to 4 is better than 4 dropping to 3. When using all three, we won't have enough FP to support all three being mined plus the forests, so might as well have irrigated plain for MM ability. These improvements are second only to Niagra Falls as this is our most powerful city besides the capitol.

At least one worker should start helping the next town, since it will need help to get building units efficiently. If the next city is City 4 is as above, the plain irrigation has priority over the BG because the extra shield from the BG mine will be lost to corruption, and we need a 2f tile to keep growing at pop 2. Warning, the following is NOT Socratic. It's very detailed movement of workers. Don't read if you want to figure it out on your own. Then you can come back and see how you did. I would road the BG, Irrigate the NW plain, road it, then return to mine the BG. I would then hit the SW plain, then the W plain, ending on City 4's side of the river and be ready to head NE to City 5 ;)

My 5th town
Would probably be in the NE Unless Japan hasn't settled the Eastern cow Choke area. (Highly unlikely.) If they haven't settled it, I'd go for white dot. If they settle near white dot but north of it, blue/yellow circle is good.

The AI
We really are assuming Persia doesn't come for the horses/incense. To insure that, we need a unit on the choke NOW! Having look outs on the mountains not only prevent barbs from appearing but also give advanced warnings about "Persian Incursion":lol:. As far as GK's block goes, we're a long way from having three spare units to prevent the Japanese. Our focus now should be to use our food to settle anything they dont. "Cherry pick" the best shield tiles. Build our millitary and reclaim the Japanese land for ourselves. Looking at their land I definitely think using our GA against them would be wise. I also would consider calling a fake war against the zulu and drap Japan in against them when we get writing. That would get Japan to turn it's back to us for us to stab at.

Research
With the unexplored territory remaining, there is still the possibility that there are more goody huts. I would rather get a second level tech than a first level tech from that so I would recommend blocking the alphabet path and hoping for a hut to get HBR, IW or even Monarchy. If not, no loss done. I suspect Alphabet will be available soon. If it is we can buy it. If it's not we can sell it! I would consider putting some money into science if our unit cost isn't bad. We have three lux to grab so happiness shouldn't cost much. Self research gives the gold to ourselves, not the AI. Doing more-than-min research will come back as a discount when buying Alphabet from someone else. An if we get it first we might be able to get writing first too. (Wishful thinking probably.)

Enough rambling from me for now. Any questions SK(Playing)? Nick(new Noob:) )?
 
Thanks for that ControlFreak, looks like you have everything covered, and you have some very good ideas, i'm just trying to digest them now.

I'm amazed at how the higher level players play this game like its an exact science :goodjob:
 
Originally posted by SolarKnight
I'm amazed at how the higher level players play this game like its an exact science :goodjob:
Just so you know where your information is coming from:
Last night, I installed Civ/PTW just to see if I still had all the files. I fired up an archipelago map as Spain. I lost the game in 6 turns:
1 move settler
2 found city, workers starts roading cow.
3 Nothing.
4 German archer appears. Trade Alphabet for Bronze
5 German archer enters our territory, Warrior built. Ask Germany to politely get out. He agrees.
BT Germany declares war, archer redlines but kills my only military unit. Conquest loss.

Not a very nice welcome home party was it? I'll take that as a sign not to start playing just yet. And don't include me in your "higher level players" group yet, for multiple reasons.

DONT MOVE THE SETTLER UNLESS YOU HAVE TO.

{end threadjack}
 
Don't worry ControlFreak, your thinking is sound, I'm playing my turns now.

Edit: There is a problem, we have a barb warrior incoming.

help.JPG


We have two options that i can see, either remove a warrior from the capital and risk upsetting the settler factory or research due to change in lux rate, or whip a warrior in Niagra.

What do you guys think we should do?
 
Move the warrior in the capitol, adjust lux rate...
 
Hello all! I've spent the last three days reading this entire thread (and getting no work done!) and just wanted to thank all of you for the great info and the excellent analysis. I'm a terrible player (loose more than I win on Warlord), probably because I came to the Game, and gaming in general, late in life. You instructors are great and the "students" are way in advance of my play, so I've learned a lot, and I'll continue to follow this SG and maybe ask a question from time to time if nobody minds. Before I go, I do have a couple questions: is there a tread/article anywhere that discusses what techs the AI tends to dismiss (for trading purposes), and also, is there an explanation somewhere of why it is unwise to allow a city to get to size seven (is it just the unhappiness factor or something more intricate)? Thanks for your help, and your interest in helping players like me to improve their games. :)

JackRules
 
Hi Jackrules :)

For Techs you need to readwhat will the AI research next by alexman. It's a bit technical, but is the accurate answer to your question.

The argument about reaching size 7 has been chewed over in this thread. The first time it was highlighted was in Babylons Deity settlers by Bamspeedy, a Civ deity if ever there was one.

Finally, you should join a succession game. If you want to, then just PM me and I'll sort you out. ;)
 
Originally posted by JackRules
Hello all! I've spent the last three days reading this entire thread <snip>
Um...we've got another new player who just read the entire thread...and joined the game! Whaddya say? Up for it? Bugs/Gengis, have we room for another?

On your research question: Check out What will the AI Research Next? by alexman, in the War Academy.

and also, is there an explanation somewhere of why it is unwise to allow a city to get to size seven (is it just the unhappiness factor or something more intricate)? Thanks for your help, and your interest in helping players like me to improve their games. :)
The size 7 city size is part of our "settler factory" strategy. When the city hits size 7, the granary is emptied, and it messes up the settler factory cycle a little...

Edit: Cross-posted with Mad-Bax ... taking a bread from administering the SGOTM, MB? :wavey:
 
Welcome JackRules! (Cant call you Jack 'cause that will always be Jack Merchant to me. Maybe JR if that's OK.)

Regarding the techs, one of the pros developed a utility to calculate the likely hood of an AI researching a tech. When I find it, I'll edit a link into here. EDIT: No need, see the previous two cross-posters.;) To summarize the info there, AI's value techs that: Give them their UU, give them the option of building a new unit, give them the option of building a wonder, show new resources, provide a new government, required to enter the new age.

The more common techs to attempt this min-sci gambit are:
  • Polytheism - Great if you pop Mystism from hut or are Religous and start with CB or both as in this case.
  • Literature - Philosophy (cause it's cheap) and MapMaking (cause it makes galleys and Lighthouse) are usually the AI favorites after Writing. Even though librarys and Great Lib are enabled by Lit, its expensive and optional so they avoid it at first.
  • Math - Has two heavy beaker techs as a pre-reqs so if you start with those two, you have a leg up.
  • Printing Press - asside from democracy has no benefit. AI's don't compute what tech's are enabled by learning the pre-req so this is often a low choice. (Same principle applies to Polytheism.)

There are probably others. Everything depends on the game setup so don't plan on using one strategy every time.

As far as size 7:
It is NEVER unwise to get to size 7. Lately (last half-year or so) the trend of "Settler Factories" has become really popular. The idea is that you can get a high food, high sheild city to produce settlers every 4 turns with a granary. People using these "Factories" rely on the fact that a granary only requires 10 food to grow up to size 7. At size 7, the food box doubles in size, and it also empties the granary. So now the city takes 20f to grow and you must first refill the granary (20f). So growing from 7 to 8 takes 40f and 8 to 9 take 20f. This kills most settler factories because at +5fpt, it would take 12turns to gain two citizens for a settler. So settler factories usually avoid growing past 6. Same for worker factories. It's all about the number of turns to replace the citizens lost when building workers/settlers.

There are some "Leet" players (Sirian) who A) believe these food factories are an exploit {AI doesn't do it} and B)Think you're wasting your potential, purposefully slowing down a city's growth just so it can endlessly cycle through growing/settling.

I believe that the AI doesn't do it, but still use it as a powerful tool. (I need all the help I can get.) However, I also agree that most settler factories, if you shut them off, let them grow and build things besides settlers, are EXTREMELY POWERFUL CITIES in their own right. After all, they have food and shield bonuses. So if I screw up the MM of a factory and it grows above size 7, I don't whip citizens or starve it to get it back down. That would be making a mistake ontop of a mistake. I usually build a higher ticket item like a temple/market/library. Then, I start building workers/settlers again. With the higher shield income size 7-12 cities, the settlers build much faster than growth and the population naturally drops back down to the factory range. In the long run, I end up with the same # of settlers over the same number of turns, plus I get an extra library,temple,market or horsemen. The only problem is that the first few settlers are delayed. In the early turns a delayed settler is a missed city cite. You have to chose whats more important. In this game, I'm guessing our settler factory will be turned off very soon. Letting it grow will get it producing a MW every other turn, maybe one per turn in our GA. Then we can just capture all the cities Japan founded for us.:hammer: :mwaha:
 
Excellent! More reading material-thanks Mad-Bax.

I would really enjoy doing an SG game or training day but travel and a new girlfriend make it a bad idea for me right now. I've only played one full game of Civ this year so far:cry: But I appreciate the offer and will keep you in mind if my situation changes (maybe when I retire in 20 years!) Thanks again.

JackRules

edit: thanks to everyone for the help.
 
Jack - Would you like to join? I'm a former Navy flyboy, so I'd like to have another Mariner aboard.
 
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