Gengis Khan
Deity
I agree.
Shogun, please post what you'll be trying to accomplish during your turns, then go ahead & play.
Shogun, please post what you'll be trying to accomplish during your turns, then go ahead & play.
GK2- The Training Day Experiment
- Thread starter Gengis Khan
- Start date
ArmPilot
Warlord
I'm interested in taking one of the empty spots but i don't know where to begin sorting all this stuff
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Gengis Khan
Deity
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Start no earlier than the very last post on Page 3, by Mad-Bax: "The Save". Download that save, but don't play it yet. From there the discussion goes through some early moves with the worker and scout, and we see some things as a group.Originally posted by ArmPilot
I'm interested in taking one of the empty spots but i don't know where to begin sorting all this stuff
The discussion then turns to"Where do we put the settler". Once you know what we did with the worker and scout, you could (if you have the time) take the save gamed, duplicate the worker and scout moves, and play 10 turns from that point. (We all did this.) Then you'll find some discussion with some turnlogs and screencaps from each of our first 10 turns. You can then compare your first 10 to the first 10 played by the rest of us. That should get you started.
One other thing: Welcome aboard!
(Sir Bugsy and Gengis Khan are the 'official' instructors, one of them will put you in the playing rotation... probably as quick as you're ready for it...two of us have already played a second round of turns, and it would probably be better if we worked you in during the first rotation.)
Edit - cross posted with Gengis - take his advice before mine...
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Gengis/Sir Bugs: I have an idea that might help someone trying to join the game at this stage. I stuck a little arrow next to this post...
Would it be possible for us (all) to go back through the thread, look at each of our posts, and answer the question "Would this post help a player just joining the game?"
And if the answer to that question is "yes", edit the thing and stick a little arrow beside it...
Whaddya think?
Would it be possible for us (all) to go back through the thread, look at each of our posts, and answer the question "Would this post help a player just joining the game?"
And if the answer to that question is "yes", edit the thing and stick a little arrow beside it...
Whaddya think?
yoshi74
Tourist from Mars
The arrow idea isn' bad, but i would go on step further. How about picking the best/most usefull post and put them into a thread on the strategy forum? So a refined form of the current thread. Would require a lot more work through 
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
@ Yoshi - The other thread idea will require a moderator to help out with... probably not going to happen since they are very busy.
@ Scout - I like the arrow idea.
@ AP - Welcome aboard. Probably for the short term you just need to read up on the two questions that we are attempting to answer. The immediate question on the table: where do we settle our second city and why.
The other question is what should our intermediate goals be? By intermediate I mean, between our present time and 1000 BC.
I think if you start at about page 19, you will get an idea of those two discussions. You will probably want to go back to the start and eventually read what happened before that.
@ Scout - I like the arrow idea.
@ AP - Welcome aboard. Probably for the short term you just need to read up on the two questions that we are attempting to answer. The immediate question on the table: where do we settle our second city and why.
The other question is what should our intermediate goals be? By intermediate I mean, between our present time and 1000 BC.
I think if you start at about page 19, you will get an idea of those two discussions. You will probably want to go back to the start and eventually read what happened before that.
shoguntaka
Warlord
When the first settler is produced, I will move and settle him 3 tiles west of the capital, and the worker will road to the city. It'll take the worker 7 total turns to complete the highway to the new city. And after that, he'll move 2-SW unto the wheat and start irrigating->roading that tile.
I'm not sure about this, but here's an idea:
the new city will have its production set to granary,
it'll grow in 5 turns (4fpt), and will accummalte 5 shields,
and the governor will assign the new citizen to the forest,
gaining another 2 free shields (7 shields total), and will produce 3spt. That means, in 4 more turns, the city will have total of 20 shields invested (if you MM to assign citizen from the wheat to a mountain for only 1 turn), and will be size 2, and I will pop-rush that city to get 40 shields from the pop, making it total of 60 shields (the granary cost). Since the road connection from the wine to the new city will be completed that time, the unhappiness generated from pop-rushing will be neutered. I think it's pretty good idea to build granary just in 9 turns on a brand-new city.
I'm not sure what to build after the 1st settler at Salamanca. Are we going for 4-turns settler factory, or 6-turns?
I'm not sure about this, but here's an idea:
the new city will have its production set to granary,
it'll grow in 5 turns (4fpt), and will accummalte 5 shields,
and the governor will assign the new citizen to the forest,
gaining another 2 free shields (7 shields total), and will produce 3spt. That means, in 4 more turns, the city will have total of 20 shields invested (if you MM to assign citizen from the wheat to a mountain for only 1 turn), and will be size 2, and I will pop-rush that city to get 40 shields from the pop, making it total of 60 shields (the granary cost). Since the road connection from the wine to the new city will be completed that time, the unhappiness generated from pop-rushing will be neutered. I think it's pretty good idea to build granary just in 9 turns on a brand-new city.
I'm not sure what to build after the 1st settler at Salamanca. Are we going for 4-turns settler factory, or 6-turns?
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I don't know a lot about pop rushing, since I don't do it a lot, but I don't think you can get 40 shields out of pop rushing a 2 pop city. I guess the next question would be, what do you want the new city to do for you? If you want workers, with all that food you can probably skip the granary, since shields will be your limiting factor. If you want military, you'll probably want a richer shield location.
shoguntaka
Warlord
I remember seeing somewhere that in vanilla CivIII, the first pop you rush will give you 40 shields, while the consecutive pops (in same turn) will give 20 shields.
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
I believe Civ III patch 1.29 is only 20s per pop.
You can check this in a different game before trying it here.
You can check this in a different game before trying it here.
Gengis Khan
Deity
I'm pretty sure you're right. I can't remember ever getting 40 shields from pop rushing(although in truth I don't really remember playing "vanilla" before I patched it up.)
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
These two statements are intimately linked. Right now you only have one worker. What to do?
Options (chose 1):
- Road current tile, move to the BG we skipped, mine it for a 4-turn settler factory in 10 turns.
- Road current tile, move west, road that tile, move back to bg (yes, we can go all the way back in 1 turn), 4-turn settler factory in 14 turns.
- Other solution that gets us to 4-turn settler factory AND the second city connected AND starts improving the second city in...9 turns.
shoguntaka
Warlord
Get the Salamanca to build a worker after the Settler?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
On Despot whip-rushing... I think Shogun is getting the idea from This Article in the War Academy
I believe the 40 shields comes from the way the whipped citizens were counted... the citizens were 'rounded down'. The idea was that you could set the queue to something that cost 40 shields, let it build for one turn (accumulating one shield) and the next turn you could whip to complete the project. If the project needed only 39 shields (not 40) the second citizen was "rounded down" and it only cost 1 citizen to get 39 shields. You can then set the queue to Granary, and whip it for one more citizen.
I could be wrong, but I think one of the patches "fixed" this, because used in this manner it is a 19-shield exploit, and a powerful one if used in a cascade of "short-rushes". (set queue to harbor, build 1 turn, switch to barracks, rush 1 citizen, net 39 more shields, switch to Granary, let build 1 turn, switch to harbor, rush one more citizen to net 39 more shields...80 shields for 3 turns and 2 citizens...)
I also know that in Conquests they doubled the period of unhappiness due to rushing...
Rushing is probably worth looking at, but I think we need to get a couple more luxuries hooked up first...
@ ControlFreak - the only way I see to get all that done is to pump a worker out of the capitol... and I see that getting all that stuff done, but at the cost of one less settler....
@ Shogun - an unimproved floodplain city with wheat will grow in 7 turns, not 5. Why do you like the spot 3 tiles west so much?
I believe the 40 shields comes from the way the whipped citizens were counted... the citizens were 'rounded down'. The idea was that you could set the queue to something that cost 40 shields, let it build for one turn (accumulating one shield) and the next turn you could whip to complete the project. If the project needed only 39 shields (not 40) the second citizen was "rounded down" and it only cost 1 citizen to get 39 shields. You can then set the queue to Granary, and whip it for one more citizen.
I could be wrong, but I think one of the patches "fixed" this, because used in this manner it is a 19-shield exploit, and a powerful one if used in a cascade of "short-rushes". (set queue to harbor, build 1 turn, switch to barracks, rush 1 citizen, net 39 more shields, switch to Granary, let build 1 turn, switch to harbor, rush one more citizen to net 39 more shields...80 shields for 3 turns and 2 citizens...)
I also know that in Conquests they doubled the period of unhappiness due to rushing...
Rushing is probably worth looking at, but I think we need to get a couple more luxuries hooked up first...
@ ControlFreak - the only way I see to get all that done is to pump a worker out of the capitol... and I see that getting all that stuff done, but at the cost of one less settler....
@ Shogun - an unimproved floodplain city with wheat will grow in 7 turns, not 5. Why do you like the spot 3 tiles west so much?
shoguntaka
Warlord
A flooplain normally has 3 food, but the wheat gives it +2, bring it up to 5 food (even w/o irrigation), and under depotism, it brings it down to 4ftp. And you need 20 food to grow (if size 6 or less). So 20/4 = 5 turns to grow.
I like the 3W spot better, because it has a forest to immediately to work with w/o cultural expansion. Your spot doesn't have a forest to work with. My spot produces one more shield than yours, and while my spot gives the capital much more room as well. The worker will be working on the western side of the river anyway.
denyd
Emperor
But the guy working that tile is going to eat 2 of those food 
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
My thoughts on the city placement would be either of the two FP sites, with the one to the West being preferable.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Why is the one to the west preferable?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
@ SolarKnight: Okay...why?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here guys, just trying to understand what you're thinking. Understanding what you're trying to accomplish will help me plan moves that (when it's my turn again) will compliment the moves that you're making. If you're trying to set up a second settler factory, and I go pump a couple of workers out of it, we're not really working together, are we?
@ Shogun - I see your rationale for the city placement. Much of what you said makes perfect sense - for the development of the city. Another question: What do we want this city to be? A worker pump, or a second settler factory? Or just a general purpose city?
As far as "the worker staying west of the river" - that'll only be true for the worker that is working to improve the terrian around that city... if we use this for a worker factory, consider the movement point lost as the worker leaves the city. If you've considered that lost movement point and still think the stronger placement is west of the river, hey - that's cool - I just want to know you've considered it.
The reasoning behind the city placement also goes to the prioritizing of cities... if all you want out of the thing is a worker pump, then I agree that the western floodplain site is a little more attractive. As far as second floodplain city goes, take a good look at that southern floodplain site. You've got a forest tile, 3 plains, 2 floodplains, 1 hill, and a floodplain w/ wheat in the 9 tiles around that site. I see strategic potential there. Settle that site, develop it early, and use it to settle the southern end of our empire - everything produced north of that site goes towards Japan...
If you guys have looked at that site and don't see the same potential (or see other priorities) then that's cool with me - I just want to know you looked at it, and what you're thinking.
The reason I'm going into all this is because I think our 3rd city needs to be a high shield producer. Worker pumps and/or a second settler factory are Good Things, but we are due for some barbarians, and we'll need units soon. I'm concerned that settling the 2 floodplain sites one right after the other (shogun's map) is going to leave us short the one or two warriors we're going to need to keep the barbarians off our workers' backs and out of the infrastructure we've managed to build to this point.
