GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[scoutsout]

@ ControlFreak: thanks for that excellent analysis... southern FP site is potentially powerful, but we need the western FP site to harness it...

I guess that decides where our settler is going!

Oh yeah - I agree with the #$!@$#!@ on the forum upgrade...

@ Zeppa - the research path we are on is a strategic one that you won't see come into play at levels below Monarch... it goes to trading technologies with the AI civs... Iron working (either researching it or trading for it) is a priority, but not a top priority.

The units you can build at any point are based on a combination of technologies you have researched and resources available. Knights become available in the early Middle Ages after researching Chivalry, but if you don't have Iron and horses, you can't build Knights... (and you hae to research most of the Ancient Age techs before you can go to the Middle Ages...)

So whose turn is it? SK's or Shogun's?

 

[shoguntaka]

[0]
No Changes made.

[IBT]
Japanese warriors moving toward our land.

[1]
Salamanca: settler -> worker
Worker started roading the tile he's standing on.

[IBT]
They, the Japanese people, settled Tokyo right near the lake, and that's where the japanese warriors are going to fortify.

[2]
Exploring /w the scouts.

[IBT]
Zululand send a settler south.

[3]
Salamanca: worker -> settler
Moved the new worker NE to the unmined BG grassland.

[IBT]
Quiet.

[4]
Worker #1 is finished roading, and moved W.
Settled 2nd city, Niagara Fall, and it's producing a warrior at 1spt rate.
Worker #2 started mining.

[IBT]
Still Quiet.

[5]
Worker #1 roads.

[IBT]
We spotted a barbarian lurking south of us.

[6]
Exploring more.

[IBT]
I saw that the Japanese send off another settler from their capital east, toward our land!

[7]
Salamanca: settler -> warrior
Moved warrior & settler pair south.

[IBT]
The southern barbarian attacked the pair, but we won unscathed.

[8]
Moved the pair one more S.
Worker #1 finished roading, and started irrigating the FP.

[IBT]
Nothing.

[9]
Salamanca: warrior -> settler
Moved the pair SE to the selected sile for our 3rd city.
Niagara Fall grew to size 2, and I discovered that it has 33% corruption (it produce 2spt out of 3spt), and I was hoping for 20% or 25% corruption

[IBT]
I saw that the Persian send a settler south from their capital.

[10]
Settled the Grand River, our 3rd city, and is now working on the warrior. Worker #2 finished mining and moved East to the BG grassland.

Conclusion
Polythesis is due in 20 turns and we're raking 17 gold a turn, and I checked the diplomacy screen with each civ every turn, and they haven't discovered any new technology at all yet. The Japanese has a setter heading near us, and I smell a near-future war with them. Our capital, Salamanca is doing 7spt and 5ftp, making an excellent settler factory. And all of our cities in the first inner ring will have 33% corruption.

 

[Zeppa]

I remain confused on iron. Intuitivly iron would be needed for units with swords and armor. The game gives armor upgrades to horse units without requiring iron. Is iron required to get to middle ages? What are the requirements to get to MA? Can you get to MA without iron? The one page tech tree is very unclear on this to me.

 

[shoguntaka]

At last, the save and a screenshot.

(Also, our scout will be killed by the barbarian, and I was hoping to send him to explore the land west of the Zululand )

The Save

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Zeppa
I remain confused on iron. Intuitivly iron would be needed for units with swords and armor. The game gives armor upgrades to horse units without requiring iron. Is iron required to get to middle ages? What are the requirements to get to MA? Can you get to MA without iron? The one page tech tree is very unclear on this to me.

I may see the source of the confusion here... there are "two irons" in the game. A resource, and a technology.

Researching the technology Iron Working allows you to "see" where the iron is located on the map. If you have iron in your empire, and you connect to it with a road, you will "have" iron, and can then build Swordsmen; the only unit that the Iron Working tech allows you to build (unless playing a civ whose unique unit replaces the swordsman, like Persia's Immortal)

You cannot get to the middle ages without researching all of the required technologies in the Ancient Ages, and Iron Working is one of those required technologies.

So - in order to upgrade horsemen (in our case Mounted Warriors) to knights you need to get to the Middle Ages (so you've already got Iron Working) and have access to Iron (the resource).

The relationships between technologies, units, and resources gets a little complex. Some units even require mutliple resources (Knights require Iron and Horses... )

I hope this helps... I have a turnlog to read now...

 

[scoutsout]

@Shogun - Nice turns! Too bad there are barbs south of us, or we could start on a granary there... looks like you did a good job "priming the pump" on the settler factory.

...and how nice of Tokugawa to build a canal city for us!

Edits:

@Shogun - nice job of scouting out Shaka's territory too, btw... you do seem to do a nice job with scouts... hmmm... maybe you oughta have my moniker...

Who's up? Anybody heard from Infoman?

 

[Gengis Khan]

Bad news guys, I had to rush off to Pennsylvania for a family emergency, I freaking hate those..... always bad news. I left Friday, and won't be returning till Sunday(next week). This unfortunatly means no Civ for me for a week plus, I can already feel the shakes & DTs coming on........ it's going to be a long week.

I will have brief internet access though, so I'll try to get on once or twice a day to check in.

Bugs: If you can shadow the turns till I get back I'll be very appreciative & take the next 5 turns.

 

[Slicknick1136]

i just bough civ and been only playin it for about a week,i suck and i just now discovered this thread.....Is it 2 late 4 me to join in.

 

[ControlFreak]

Originally posted by shoguntaka
Niagara Fall grew to size 2, and I discovered that it has 33% corruption (it produce 2spt out of 3spt), and I was hoping for 20% or 25% corruption

Groan...There goes the worker/3 turns idea. I was wondering if this would be a problem. Note however that it may not be as bad as 33%. If your corrupt resulted in 2.5 shields out of 3, it would also round down to give you 2/3. So it may only be ~20%. That would be good news since we need to get more than 66% of the southern FP shields for a settler factory. We'll see as the city grows.

What this means to the West city is that we will have to mine one or both of the hills, plus the plains.

Originally posted by shoguntaka
Polythesis is due in 20 turns and we're raking 17 gold a turn, and I checked the diplomacy screen with each civ every turn, and they haven't discovered any new technology at all yet. The Japanese has a setter heading near us, and I smell a near-future war with them. Our capital, Salamanca is doing 7spt and 5ftp, making an excellent settler factory. And all of our cities in the first inner ring will have 33% corruption.

High gpt values are one of the extra bonuses of FP areas that few people talk about. To make the most use of the FP area, you want to maintain high population so each citizen can benefit from the river commerce. Purely FP cities make better size 12 cities than settler factorys because of their low shield, high commerce tiles.

Great job shogun and good observations regarding AI. It's good to post these movements so the team know what to watch out for.

Zeppa@did scoutsout answer your question?
Iron working is a very powerful technology BUT all the AI know that too. They usually research it as one of their high priorities. Because of AI discounts on research at Monarch level and higher, we (the player) could never beat the AI to Iron Working. So a technique used by better players is to research something the AI has as a low priority and then use it to trade for all the techs the AI researchs first. If you chose the right tech to research, you AI may ignore it soooo long that you can get it first even at the minimum rate (10% or 1 scientist guarentees you get the tech in 40 turns.) In our case, since we're religious and expansionist, we started with Cerimonial Burial (CB) and got Mystisim for free from a friendly tribe (A.K.A. goody hut,mushroom village). That means we could start minimum research on Polytheism way before the AI. We set science at 10% and have been raking in the gold per turn, saving it for trading later. You almost never want to spend money on first tier techs, so we plan on trading our first tier techs for the AI first tier techs and then use Poly to trade for Writing, HBR, MapMaking, IW, Philosophy, Code of Laws .... If you know enough AIs and time the Polytheism trade at the right time, it is a huge savings in research. Note that this doesn't work too well on lower levels because the AI doesn't research fast enough to be worth waiting on them.

Slicknick@ I think people are very welcoming here and you will definitely learn stuff. It's really up to the trainers but I bet if you plead ...

EDIT: Looking at the the map, Japan is a potential MONSTER. They have three food bonuses in their capital and a ton of grass and bonus grass. That canal city is pretty close to a first radius city and if they get the other canal cite, they will have a food bonus and as many BGs as they can work. You will have an uphill battle to take them on early. They will be out producing you 2 to 1. Good luck. Prey the go after the Zulu first and you can hit them while their back is turned.

EDIT2:

[IBT]
The southern barbarian attacked the pair, but we won unscathed.

Missed this the first time but good job escorting the settler. Seems like barb setting is high. I normally hate escorting settlers but looks like we need to in this game.

I'm thinking your workers should all head to the southern FP city to get it to top production. I also think the goal for this city should be military with occasional workers and or settlers to keep the happiness manageable. You really need to start putting shields into an attack force. I think you're going to run out of room pretty quickly with a settler every four turns. You don't want a bunch of empty citys that the Japanese will just take from you.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Slicknick1136
i just bough civ and been only playin it for about a week,i suck and i just now discovered this thread.....Is it 2 late 4 me to join in.

I wouldn't think so - Zeppa joined the thread a few days ago, and travels too much to play. That's the only reason he didn't join us. Sir Bugsy and/or Gengis will have to give you the nod, but I suspect you can still get in.

 

[Slicknick1136]

ok,great,ill await a response from Sir Bugsy or Gengis....

 

[SolarKnight]

Ok guys, i have the save, and i'm ready to go.

just a few questions, first a really simpe one, if a city is a settler factory, that means its all it produces right?

I've just never had one up and running before.

Next, is there much that needs to be done to set up the worker factory?

The closest thing i ever had to the settler factory was a city that would produce a settler than a spear alternately, something i aim to achieve in all my games in at least one city.

This is why i ask.

Next, after polytheism, what are we researching, Monarchy or Horseback Riding?

If we are going for advances the AI doesn't go for quickly, i've noticed the AI go for HBR much earlier than monarchy, but if we want to be aggressive HBR might be more useful.

(No Apologies this time, i'm going to give this game my all now, if im going to learn i have to be positive about my actions.)

SolarKnight

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Slick you're in.

Sorry I haven't been here much. With the forum being down on Friday, plus Easter, I've been negligent.

Some quick observations. If we lose the western scout we should send the one just south of Japan towards the west. Exploration is our number one priority.

It appears that the settler factory is up and running very well. After the warriors are built in the two outlying cities, what does everyone think we should build next and why?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

@ Solar - Yes, just keep cranking settlers until somewhere in the 20th century OK, maybe the 10th century, but definitely for a long time. In my latest GOTM attempt, I kept my settler factory going until 1000 AD. This game may not require so many cities.

The next tech to research question is a good one. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on that. At this point in the game there is no "right " answer. It truly is a strategy decision and is based on what you want to do.

 

[Slicknick1136]

alrite,thanks guys for excepting me in.I think this will be a great learning experience for me.anyway,i'm just jumping in to this so im ganna try and read some former posts for info about the situation of this game.i wish i was here in the beginning so I could see how the game grew from the start.Anything I should know before hand about this game?Thanks in advancve...

-Nick-

 

[yoshi74]

@Slicknick
Welcome aboard

What you should know:
1. Try to read as much as you can in this thread. Turnwise its still very early in the game, but there were a lot of basics (and several advantage) topics covered during all these pages.
2. Ask whenever you don't understand something. With only a week playing the game many of the topics may be not too easy to understand.
Enjoy the game

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Nick - Very good idea to read all 25 pages. It will be a good investment to get up to speed. While you are reading, try and answer the questions and then compare how you did with your teammates.

Looking over Shogun's game, I wasn't able to duplicate his turns since I don't know where you moved your scouts.

Some observations:

1) if you wanted to have RCP, you missed. The Western city is at 4.5 and the southern city is at 3.5. You round down in both cases, so you have a 3 and a 4.

2) The micro-management of the cities looks good. I will be interested to see how the team builds in these cities, and how workers are managed.

3) The diplomatic front is quiet.

4) The sliders are good for the present situation. I understand why one would want to have two MPs in the capitol... namely to reduce luxury tax. However, given the barb situation, I would consider placing one on a mountain to suppress barb camps. I would also consider placing one on the southern chokepoint to prevent Xerxes from getting through our lands and meeting Tokugawa and Shaka.

There is a lot of exploring to be done on the southern portion of the continent and over in Zululand, so I would consider popping some more scouts.

Some immediate decisions that need to be made.

1. What are your next two city locations.
2. What are your worker priorities.
3. What will you next tech to research be.

You guys are in good shape, but given the fertile lands that mad-bax has provided the three civs you have met so far, you are in for an uphill battle. Any military action will need to be well planned and thoroughly thought through.

The team should try to provide as much guidance to SK before he plays, but moving forward, each player will probably be making decisions on their own. Again, if during one's turn, if you have any questions stop playing and ask.

Please be very detailed in your turn logs so Gengis and I can provide you with some feedback as we replay your turns.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Here's the roster - I think

shogun - just played
SolarKnight - Up
infoman - On deck (and MIA for a while )
Scout
SlickNick

 

[shoguntaka]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy


1) if you wanted to have RCP, you missed. The Western city is at 4.5 and the southern city is at 3.5. You round down in both cases, so you have a 3 and a 4.

You sure about that?
It's 3W to the western city, and that's 1.5+1.5+1.5 = 4.5 (rounded down to 4). It's 2S and 1SE to the southern one, and that's 1.5+1.5+1 = 4.

3) The diplomatic front is quiet.

That's because no one, including us, has invented anything new.

4) The sliders are good for the present situation. I understand why one would want to have two MPs in the capitol... namely to reduce luxury tax. However, given the barb situation, I would consider placing one on a mountain to suppress barb camps. I would also consider placing one on the southern chokepoint to prevent Xerxes from getting through our lands and meeting Tokugawa and Shaka.

You're right on this, these warriors could have proved to be of better use than just MP. But I think it's too late, because I think I saw a Persian warrior, west of us, heading north.

There is a lot of exploring to be done on the southern portion of the continent and over in Zululand, so I would consider popping some more scouts.

The southern part of Zululand has been explored fully, and the western land needs to be explored, and I don't think we need any more scout.

Some immediate decisions that need to be made.

1. What are your next two city locations.
2. What are your worker priorities.
3. What will you next tech to research be.

1) Probably the next one should be southeast (see my dotmap on page 21) of our capital, near that horse. It should build the temple first thing. I was thinking about this... Since it'll take 10 turns for it to grow to size 2, and it'll have 10 shields invested in the temple, and we're religious (halving the temple cost to 30). Then we can pop-rush to add 20 shields to the temple, thus completeing it. That way, that city can culturally expand and can access the horse.

2) connect all the cities and connect the horse as well.

3) How about Monarchy on min science again?

 

[scoutsout]

@ Shogun: Concur with you on scouts, disagree on settling SE out of the capitol. Our biggest tactical problem right now is a land grab contest with Japan. If we send any more settlers out of the capitol, we should send only one, to grab the choke point.

I also think you're right on the RCP thing Shogun... but will double check...

I think the next spot to be settled should be NW of the city. There's a plains tile 4 tiles NW of our captitol (I think.... downloading latest C3C patch, so my connection is getting bogged down...24 megs at 56k...yuck...) I will post another dotmap in a little while, based partly on the "plan for NW expansion" that I posted earlier... There are a couple of ways to approach it...

On research: Somebody refresh my memory... were we going to go on a tech trading binge with Mysticism one turn before Polytheism, or were we going to trade with Polytheism?

I think the tech priorities may shift depending on what we can trade for... if we can't trade for Map Making, that should be the one to go for next.