Global savepoint ? When would you reload ?

But wasn't it inevitable, given their economic advantage, that the puny farmers were eventually gonna develop something that would put paid to the horse archers? I hate to cite strategy games as a predictor of world events, but since this is a Civ game forum we all know that population cures all ills. Research too slow? More population. Military too expensive, too weak, or both? More population. No matter the game, early rapid population growth is the surest path to victory..and the farmers locked up the faster population growth. Game was over before it got started good.
More or less my thought. Nomads, hunter-gatherers, horticulturalists...they eventually hit a limit on population. They just can't produce enough food in a given area and can't really invent new ways of doing so. Settled peoples could produce a lot of food with comparatively little territory. They also had the division of labor and resources needed to eventually invent new technologies.

If you look at the Jomon versus the Japanese, it's a familiar story. The native Jomon are still little-understood--they did have some farming but also fishing and hunting. They lived in Japan for many thousands of years until the ancestors of the Japanese started to arrive with their rice farms and their state organization. It took about a thousand years, but the Japanese absorbed or replaced the Jomon entirely on Kyushu, Shikoku, and Honshu. In northern Honshu the Emishi put up a fight in the Thirty Eight Years' War and succeeded in burning a few forts and killing thousands of Japanese soldiers, but the best they could hope for was to live another day and they couldn't do that.

On Hokkaido the Ainu, a mix of Jomon and peoples from around the Sea of Okhotsk, were allowed to remain mostly unbothered for another eight centuries because the Japanese didn't want Hokkaido. It was then a cold land unsuited for rice farming, and so nearly worthless to them. Only when they feared Russian expansion and figured out how to farm rice there did the Japanese decide to colonize, and within a few decades the Ainu were pretty much a dying culture once the Japanese forced them to learn Japanese, take Japanese names, and shave their majestic beards. Even earlier the Ainu had been beaten down in two rebellions by the small trading posts in the south of the island.

This story repeated the world over for thousands of years. Hunter-gatherers and horticulturalists have something, farming states want it, farming states get it sooner or later. The reverse was never true. There was no way for hunter-gatherers and horticulturalists to hold on to prized land or expand against settled peoples forever.
 
Full Luxury Space Communism

If it’s not gay is there even a point?

I’m not very old so I can’t make Stalin read a book or drown baby Himmler or anything. I’d probably just save Tupac or shoot Danilo Blandón’s CIA connection in 1980 or something.
 
Do not kill Hitler ! According to Hrothbern's post, for every Hitler, there is another Hitler, and the other one could be more competent.
It's extremely dangerous to meddle in the timeline before 1945.

Someone more competent wouldn't have gone on the sort of all-or-nothing genocidal rampage that Hitler did. WW2 was unwinnable for the Axis in just about every scenario. Remove Hitler before the NSDAP is even a major player in politics, and we get... something different, and probably not a total war like the one we got. Even if some revanchist fascistoid group ends up in control; someone more competent would have more realistic goals and probably not as repugnant methods, probably leave everyone better off in the long run.
 
That said, I do think we were kind of lucky as far as the development of nuclear weapons went. It was a technology that was going to come along soon-ish; but given that WW2 broke out when it did, only the USA had any chance of developing it before the war was done and over with. (Because they had way more resources to throw at the project than anyone else, both in terms of finances/industry and scientific/technical manpower; they could attack every problem from multiple angles at once, and ended up with not just one but two different working bomb designs by the summer of 1945.) Just in time to use two (really quite small) first-generation bombs "for real". Thus ensuring that by the time other powers also had nuclear arsenals (with greater numbers of more powerful bombs), everyone had gotten a good long look at the effects of the damn things.

Imagine instead a scenario where nukes were developed during peacetime -- to make it extra-bad, imagine a global political situation similar to the years before WW1. Multipolar world with several great powers in competition and/or alliance with each other, everyone building up armed forces based more on theoretical performance than practical experience... then every power with pretensions of greatness would have their own nuclear arsenal, and they'd probably think of them as "just a bigger bomb" so the taboo against using them wouldn't be as strong. Bad results seem likely.
 
Someone more competent wouldn't have gone on the sort of all-or-nothing genocidal rampage that Hitler did. WW2 was unwinnable for the Axis in just about every scenario. Remove Hitler before the NSDAP is even a major player in politics, and we get... something different, and probably not a total war like the one we got. Even if some revanchist fascistoid group ends up in control; someone more competent would have more realistic goals and probably not as repugnant methods, probably leave everyone better off in the long run.

In mid 1941 Germany declared war on Russia (after Russia mobilising troops)
At the moment the US declared war on Germany at the end of 1941 Germany was certain to lose the war.

But what if Hitler would have stopped expanding Germany to other countries after Dunkirk in june 1940 ?
Just consolidate, develop its nuke, and move on from there ?
Would in that case the US have declared war on Germany later on, just to help the UK (their main global competitor), just to help Europe ?

Would the need for mineral resources perhaps force already in June 1940 that Germany had to expand onward ?

When was the point of no return ?
 
I was going to say go back and overpay for some of Hitler's paintings, but I wiki-ed it and I can't get far enough back.

So I'll have to keep thinking.
Good idea. You would make some good money too since Hitler paintings are selling at as much as half a million/piece today.

But thinking it better, in such alternate universe where Hitler becomes a mediocre proffesional painter instead of fuhrer, his paintings wouldnt worth that much today. He was acceptable at painting buildings but didn't have a clue about how to paint people. (no surprising knowing his later trajectory)
 
In mid 1941 Germany declared war on Russia (after Russia mobilising troops)
At the moment the US declared war on Germany at the end of 1941 Germany was certain to lose the war.

But what if Hitler would have stopped, or was killed, expanding Germany after Dunkirk in june 1940 ?
Just consolidate, develop its nuke, and move on from there ?
Would in that case the US have declared war on Germany later on, just to help the UK (their main global competitor), just to help Europe ?

Would the need for mineral resources perhaps force already in June 1940 that Germany had to expand onward ?

When was the point of no return ?

German finances were such that the state would have been bankrupt by mid-1940, had not the war started before then. Bankruptcy was partially staved off by suspension of international loan payments, partially by downright looting of occupied territory. Stop expanding, there's no longer new areas to loot. This was actually according to plan; the German economy leading up to the war was largely focused on preparing for the war, which Hitler intended to win by decisively crushing the USSR (not possible). Being at war with the UK was not really part of the plan, mind you, but not really avoidable; and that war was not really winnable for Germany.

Given enough time, Germany could have developed nuclear weapons, yes. "Enough time" is hard to estimate, but given what we know now about the state of the nuclear technology program they did have (it was small, not focused on weapons, and they were on a quite wrong theoretical path for that purpose) we can assume that it would have taken several years longer than the massive hyper-focused program the USA pushed through. So, say 1950 by the earliest. Rather too late to help much.

Point of no return? Being the fourth or fifth largest industrial power in the world, and deciding on a course of action that would unavoidably lead to a war against #1, #2 and #3 all at the same time.
 
Good idea. You would make some good money too since Hitler paintings are selling at as much as half a million/piece today.

I guess not that much after the alternate history where he dies as an artist.
 
I pointed that out in my second paragraph.

Apparently professors at the Viena Academy told him he would do better going to an architectural school since he was so good with building and forget about painting. But not, it was painting or nothing. (nothing for everybody)
 
It wasn't just US resources that were on their side - quantum physics was strongly associated with Einstein and thus derided as "Jewish science". Göttingen, one of Germany's most prestigious physics departments, was gutted by the forced departure of many Jewish scientists, and those that were left were prompted to study "German science", which actively repudiated many of the insights of the "30 years that shook physics". Werner Heisenberg was one of the only famous quantum physicists left in all of Greater Germany to work on the German equivalent of the Manhattan Project.
 
Paradoxically Einstein kind of hated quantum mechanics.
 
So did Erwin Schrödinger, but they still got results. If anything, Einstein's implacable opposition to his own field helped people like Niels Bohr to further refine the science behind it all.
 
I'd go back to 1970 (that's as far back as I'm allowed to go, I think?) and slap a few heads to get everyone on-board with the whole "renewable resources are good" idea. Way too much corporate sabotaging happened back during the Boomer generation on that front. I think we'd be a lot better off today if that hadn't happened because support for renewable resources seems comorbid with caring about the environment and, as a result, the people and things in that environment.

this post expresses almost everything of what I wanted to say. I would also kick a lot of people in the nuts. I would convince the Donald to pursue an acting career, George W. Bush to pursue a cheerleading career, and bully Mark Zuckerberg into submission, then force him to become a tabletop D&D game designer instead of a data overlord.

Humans are dumb, a waste of space and have weird fetishes with limbs. Furthermore, humans didnt split from bonobos; the common ancestor theory means some non- human non-bonobo thing was the split-point.

so what you're saying is that we never split off, and that our differences are marginal at best? checks out.

Given unlimited timespan, sometime around the late mesolithic. We were onto a good thing, supplementing out hunting and foraging with a bit of horticultural and light pastoralism, but then we screwed it up with grain states and priest-kings and all that bad stuff.

Agriculture is simultaneously what made life worth living and what made life hell on earth. Beer, bread and entertainment is both the foundation of civilization and its absolute downfall. Imagine never eating bread again. No, thanks, I'll sort myself out.
 
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I really think that the only effective way left would be to blow up and set on fire everything having to do with crude oil. From oil sources to oil mammoth tankers.
Consequent keeping that way oil prices high enough to encourage other energy technologies to be researched and industrialised.

I fail to think out a more democratic solution.

some men just want to watch the world's oil reserves burn :love:

I AM THE GOD OF HELLFIRE


count me in!
 
some men just want to watch the world's oil reserves burn :love:

I AM THE GOD OF HELLFIRE


count me in!

that group from the same time and feel as I had the age to engage in such quests :)
 
I'm not trying to deny that technological evolution has an impact on society, of course it was. But is is widely overrated. Steam would revolutionize the world. Chemicals would revolutionize the world. Nuclear power would revolutionize the world. AI would revolutionize the world. Oh it didn't. But it will. But it didn't again. But it will, the singularity is just there, I have to live forever.
It turned into a religion.

Thinking of religion and having written a comment in another thread, it is worth saying here also: there are choices about how any new technology will be used. The idea of technology as a driver of inevitable change usually comes together with the idea that change is pre-determined by the technology, a denial of choice. It is not true, but if people believe it then the few who happen to be in leading with that new technology set their way alone. It has been the cause of numerous problems we have suffered and suffer from.

penicilin, vaccination and modern medicine in general sure as hell changed absolutely everything. overpopulation (of the world, not of cities) is caused almost entirely thanks to that, especially if you consider that we actually breed less now than we did a few hundred years ago. it changed completely the economic dynamic, city life, our approach/view of life and death (death is something to be prevented, postponed), and so on. some technologies really did turn the world upside down.

of course oil and coal is another example. without fossil fuels the climate change we are witnessing now simply never would have happened. computing, algorhythms and the creation of a second reality.. we are experiencing their effects now, but we will only understand their true dangers later on.

I said what I said in my post, and that is explaining enough.
Our culture is the lagging behind amalgame of techs and our human nature.
Exchange of knowledge, techs and trade secrets were besides essential minerals, the biggest direct benefit of trade routes. The CIV's alongside. The more connections, the more effect. And calling those far away connections globalisation in hindsight seems pretty much ok to me. Not because of empires, but because of the network of exchange.

no offense, but this is a fundamental misunderstanding.

technology is merely a part of culture. it is created only in its specific environment, with its specific circumstances, specific predecessor models (no technology comes from a vacuum), specific ideas that came before it, people and their time investment, their funding, their reach, and so forth. technology is (part of) the amalgam of all that we humans do and think every day. and what we do and think, is called culture. however, technologies are not only used, but also actively change us, our expectations, our habitus, creating a weird feedback loop where we are indeed subject to the things we created.

"human nature" is a fallacy. maybe in 50 years there is significant scientific evidence so I can prove that epigenetics are significantly affected by culture, "human nature", so to speak, is as much natural as it is artificial. it's everchanging. sure, I'll give you this, from an evolutionary pov not so much has happened in the recent 10,000 years, but that's not all there is to human nature. we barely understand how the brain functions yet every decade someone comes along claiming he has "figured it all out" and reduces human intellect and agency to some reductionist model that "makes sense" (appeals to common sense, aka bull dung).

the Gutenbergian printing press is such a decidedly German, decidedly Christian invention. the development of the atomic bomb (an idea they more or less stole from Germans, another thing characteristic of Americans) is a pure manifestation of American will and mentality. the way the employed it, using it on Japan even though they knew for a fact that the Japanese would surrender, such a decidedly American tactic.

But wasn't it inevitable, given their economic advantage, that the puny farmers were eventually gonna develop something that would put paid to the horse archers? I hate to cite strategy games as a predictor of world events, but since this is a Civ game forum we all know that population cures all ills. Research too slow? More population. Military too expensive, too weak, or both? More population. No matter the game, early rapid population growth is the surest path to victory..and the farmers locked up the faster population growth. Game was over before it got started good.

we simply haven't waited long enough. population growth seems to be the best, even the only viable strategy, to us now, because we're at it's absolute peak in a few decades. however what will happen once we've eached critical mass I'm not so sure about. I doubt it'll be space utopia. I bet it will be more like a Hieronymus Bosch tryptichon, and not one of the nice ones..

Someone more competent wouldn't have gone on the sort of all-or-nothing genocidal rampage that Hitler did. WW2 was unwinnable for the Axis in just about every scenario. Remove Hitler before the NSDAP is even a major player in politics, and we get... something different, and probably not a total war like the one we got. Even if some revanchist fascistoid group ends up in control; someone more competent would have more realistic goals and probably not as repugnant methods, probably leave everyone better off in the long run.

that's just hindsight. you have no idea what information Hitler had access to. hint: it was probably very one-sided. Hitler also certainly wasn't the only German who thought WW2 would be winnable. nor was US intervention a certainty, especially considering the fact that the US willingly supported all kinds of fascist regimes, like how they supported Franco in the Spanish Civil War. if you rely entirely on German intelligence, German strategists, German politicians and so on, no wonder you think such a huge undertaking as Hitler's WW2 plans possible. I bet more than half of the German population believed WW2 to be winnable until 1943. it's easy to be wise about the war more than 70 years later and being aware of all factors, yeah.
 
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the Gutenbergian printing press is such a decidedly German, decidedly Christian invention. the development of the atomic bomb (an idea they more or less stole from Germans, another thing characteristic of Americans) is a pure manifestation of American will and mentality. the way the employed it, using it on Japan even though they knew for a fact that the Japanese would surrender, such a decidedly American tactic.

I literally just posted about this. It's not stealing when the Germans expelled (or caused to flee) many of their leading physicists and then actively refused to follow up on such research.
 
But thinking it better, in such alternate universe where Hitler becomes a mediocre proffesional painter instead of fuhrer, his paintings wouldnt worth that much today.
I'd be content with preventing him from becoming fuhrer.
 
I literally just posted about this. It's not stealing when the Germans expelled (or caused to flee) many of their leading physicists and then actively refused to follow up on such research.

of course it is not, especially if we consider the fact that the Americans (or, at least, people working in America with American supervision) probably did most of the relevant research and work! it would have been more apt to use a word like "developed" or something. but every now and then one has to simplify :)

"stealing ideas" is kind of idiotic anyway, as if one could exert ownership over mental constructs *shudders*. imagine if all the people getting rich off of patents today were haunted by the ghosts of people with vaguely similiar ideas. now that would be cool!
 
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