Global warming - a suggestion

Ahriman before you post things you should read all the new posts if you noticed mine you would see factual evidence that major cooling has happened only 200 years ago. (but it was short) Also for farther info here's an article on the little ice age from the 16th to 19th centuries. Little Ice Age
 
Ahriman before you post things you should read all the new posts if you noticed mine you would see factual evidence that major cooling has happened only 200 years ago. (but it was short) Also for farther info here's an article on the little ice age from the 16th to 19th centuries

I did read the posts. I saw evidence of a decline of average temperatures of less than 1 degree C in the Little Ice Age.

I saw no evidence for major climate changes at the level that would lead to large numbers of tiles shift from one type to another. 1 degree C is not enough to change grasslands to tundra at the scale represented by multiple Civ tiles.
More severe winters? Yes.
But Europe and North America did not become tundra.
New glacial valleys were not carved.
Major lakes did not disappear.
Jungle/rainforest did not turn into temperate forest.

For reference, the last ice age had average temperatures ~8 degrees celcius lower than now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok-ice-core-petit.png

You seem to be missing the point that "noticeable weather differences and temperature change" is not the same as "huge changes large enough to tip large areas of land into different biomes".
Stop telling me to go read things until you have understood this.

Again, look at the gameplay changes being discussed:
DURING COOLINGS: Affected snow tiles becomes impassable ice, tundras become snow tiles, plains would turn to tundras, grasslands to plains, jungle to forests. Water tiles have a higher chance of freezing the further north one goes. Lakes might become frozen over, rivers may stop flowing altogether past a certain lattitude north or south.
DURING WARMINGS: Affected ice tiles become snow or water tiles, forests become jungles, grassland becomes plains, plains become deserts, lakes become oasises or grasslands, and rivers change course.
DURING BASELINE: Affected ice tiles will slowly migrate (glaciers) "downstream", creating rivers and lakes before them, and valleys behind them, changing the landscape and leaving resources (like stone) in their wake. Rivers occasionally change course by a tile or so every couple of hundred years.

These have not been observed in modern history.
 
1 Celsius is enough to make some grassland tiles turn to plains
 
1 Celsius is enough to make some grassland tiles turn to plains

That is the level that should be done.... and that can fairly easily be done with a

grassland=2 food
grassland+'modifier'=2 food-1 food=1 food

The 'modifiers' would only appear due to the action of civilizations and they could appear and disappear because they aren't altering the underlying terrain.

Essentially a less severe version of Civ 3 pollution...just make it Automatically disappear and more slowly disappear (ie no whack-a-mole workers, the 'modifer' just disappears ~30 turns after it has been put on)
 
If we include something like global warming, don't do it sloppily. I hate how another civ starts lobbing nukes and suddenly desert tiles are spawning all over my lands. That isn't realistic, nor is it fun! And ultimately we're all here to have fun, right?

So please please please, if you include stuff like global warming, implement it in a way that doesn't ruin the enjoyment of the overall game.

Thanks :)

The solution:

example:

If one equator area plains tiles bvecomes a desert then one tundra tile becomes a grassland/plains tile.

Greenland...The new frontier.
 
not necessarily, desert can actually become very fertile just add water, but tundra is still awful land
 
If we could control the weather, Siberia would be farmland :lol:

Siberia is a big place
790px-Siberia-FederalSubjects.png

however most of the soil is still pretty much worthless
 
Siberia is a big place
however most of the soil is still pretty much worthless

Precisely. People keep forgetting this. Good agricultural land is that which has had plants dying on it for many thousands of years to build soil. [And northern Siberia is very different biome-wise from southern Siberia.]

If you raise the temperature a little, tundra becomes a boggy mess from melted permafrost, still with no good soil.
 
And then you get a lot of decomposing Mammoths
 
No, no, thawed mammoths, that were just resting, that issue forth in enraged mobs, devastating the continent from Moscow to Vladivostok.
 
OH NOES! they will stop SARAH PALIN'S POLAR BEAR LEGIONS OF ANTI-COMMUNISM. Though Moscow and Vladivostok are on different continents
 
Overall, dumb idea and not needed.

It gives me that feel of someone trying to bring politics into a war game, when, some of us, just want to conquer the world and have cities everywhere.
:)
Don't spoil the fun.
 
Except Civ was designed as a builder game
 
Yes, there have been many coolings and warmings, but the scale of these has been "small" relative to the differences in civ tile types. There have NOT been coolings and warmings in on the order where the kinds of changes being talked (see quote below) about have occurred on a large scale.

[...]

At no point in the last 1000 years have for example the Great Lakes in North America been consistently frozen over throughout the year.
A change in global temperature average of 1-2 degrees C is not the same as a change in global average temperatures of 3-5 degrees.

Recognize the difference between "there has been some variation" and "there has been variation on the scale necessary to cause large numbers of forest tiles to change to jungle, plains tiles to grassland or desert, grassland tiles to tundra, tundra to ice, etc.".

Okay, a few things to address some issues:

* One, my tile examples were merely that, examples, a more logical explanation of how global warmings and coolings would function instead of just the "BAM! Random desert tile!"

* Two, as playability is concerned, this would add a new strategy dynamic, and also make it so that a player caught in extremes at the poles or equator would have some periods of relative relief.

* Three, I think, rather than tiles changing, the desired outcome could be possible to do with tile layers.

Tiles are not permanent-states of unchanging environment. They are "general templates" of how the land is best able to be used. The grassland likely still freezes over in winter, gets hot and dried out in summer, etc. And normal variations from year to year are expected and accounted for as an average for that tile. What I'm talking about are changes that change that overall usage. So yes, a northern grassland during a minor cooling might not be covered in snow and ice year-round, but the increased time that it is frozen (say by a couple of months even) plus the amount of additional water that has been trapped in ice and snow, will cause a shorter growing season, more stunted growth, and a shorter harvesting period. This even assumes some of the plants will even sprout, as most food-plants have specific soil temperatures and moisture levels before seeds will germinate. Other seeds require first being ingested by birds before germinating after they are dropped out. A longer winter will change migration cycles as well as the bird's positions. Thus, the ability to produce food in a given area could dramatically be affected. Same with whether or not blossoms will be able to be fertilized and bear fruit in time, as the life-cycles and locations of natural pollenators like bees, butterflies, etc, will be affected as well. Assuming the blossoms are fertilized, if the water level has changed too much, it might get too little water causing stunted growth, or too much water causing fruit to swell and burst (like squash does) ruining it. Even assuming the water level is within threshold, if the temperature doesn't stay within the right range for a long enough period of time, the plant could die off or its pests could overtake it (natural pest matinc cycles will be affected as well) before the fruit can take effect.

So what I am really talking about here is the ability of the tiles to produce a given level of food per cycle on average. Currently, in Civ4 this is represented by Tile type layers. So instead of changing a grassland to a plains, or plains to a tundra, instead, have "cooling" and "warming" layers, where food is added or subtracted according to the tile type and temperature difference cycle. This would seem like a more sensible approach to the game dynamics I am proposing.
 
You run up against discreteness issues rapidly in trying to implement these kind of small changes in yields.

Grasslands produce 2 food. If you want them to produce less, they have to drop to 1 food. There's no real way to model "winter is 2 weeks longer, so agricultural yields fall by 5%".

This is why its not really worth modelling minor incremental changes. The only changes to yields in the game are from huge, radical shifts in technology.
Like:
a) irrigated/farmed agriculture
b) agricultural revolution.

And these things are order of magnitude changes in real life.

We don't even separate out differences between various levels of agricultural tools/mechanization (tractors!), fertilizer, crop hybridization, etc.
All of which have had bigger impacts on yields than historic natural climate change.
 
Hmmm... that's a really good point about the mechanization. If memory serves, it raised the food production by 5x the previous amount. Yet in Civ4, the only 2 farm-affecting techs I can think of are Civil Service and Biology, and each of those would have a "1 food" max. One would think that Combustion tech would have had an enormous impact. However, that's also something that could have been taken into account in Civ5. They've handled food and population a little bit differently in each version.

Your example of a winter that is 2 weeks longer, however, is not what I'm referring to. Yearly variance easily accounts for something like 2 weeks. When 2 MONTHS become involved, however, the impact to the food supply is substantial. Little warmings and coolings of 1-3C throughout the ages could indeed cut the natural level of food supply or double it (the difference of +/- 1 food on a tile) in some areas, depending on the latitude of the place affected.

But, like you said, without even accounting for the massive impact of mechanized farming technology, hybridization, fertilizers, etc, it would be quite difficult to justify.
 
I don't think that 1-2 degree C changes would have 50-100% crop yield changes at any kind aggregate level.
For example:
http://www.ifpri.org/publication/climate-change-impact-agriculture-and-costs-adaptation

The state of the art research does suggest that there are important non-linearities in crop yields, and threshold barriers after which warming causes significant crop loss.
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/37/15594.abstract
But it still takes a temperature change past the threshold level of ~6 degrees C to be able to get these kinds of changes. (Check the graphs on the top of the second page of the Schlenker - though beware because they're extrapolating out of sample.)

But from the effect of slight cooling (as long as you start below the threshold) on yield is minimal.

So I continue the point that technology is a far more important determinant of yields than temperature.
 
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