GM-2 Masters of AWE?

[Belisar]

Ok, I have good news and bad news. First the good ones: We didn't get wiped out, and, well, there is no and. As I read Skyfish's report, I was looking forward to 10 nice turns of expansion . I shouldn't have been that confident . I played the shortest set of turns in my whole life: I exactly hit the space bar ONE time.
An Arabian Scout stops at our borders SW of Zimbabwe . I check F4 and see what I already know: We are "at peace" we the evil Arabs .
In my solo games, I survived a few AW games with contact before 2000BC, but I didn't try starting a war without a SINGLE military unit :suicide: . Well, its always a first time for everything. We will at least want to try it, but we have our pants down for sure. Because our initial discussion focused on expanding, I didn't actually play my 10 turns, instead I thought it was time for the 'kangaroo court' , because we really need masterful 100%-turns AND a common short and mid-term strategy, if we want to survive that one (and probably a bit of a gamble ).

Well, here is my short analysis: There are three possibilities:
1) The Arabs (or one of their stacks) are really close (on the west coast of the pangea or immediately to the south). In this case, we will be dead before we can say 'Caliph Abu Bakr'

2) A scout can travel through a whole 'small' world in 20 turns (assuming 1.5 tiles per turn -> 30 tiles). They could be far away and I'm making much noise on nothing. But I don't think we are that lucky.

3) We have some time before their starting units reach us. In this case we have a chance and now have to find the best way to prepare for the inevitable.

Our military advisor tells us a funny detail: 'We could support al larger military'

I want to switch Zimbabwe -> Impi, because the MP warrior will not help us in this situation (I hate to build regulars...). Zimb. is at 5spt, so it will be due in 3 turns (It has already 5s). We always can whip the second or the third and that would give us some protection. Our main problem is that Zimb. is our only settler/worker factory for a long time and we will hopelessly fall behind if we don't expand quick enough.
We need at least one quick settler, but this is in contrast to our military needs (with the additional facts that settlers will reduce the shield output of Zimb. and will itself be worthless if we do not protect them accordingly).
I intend to gamble and build an Impi in Ulundi too, I have the feeling that warriors will not help us at all. Ulundi has the additional slow-growth-problem (no whip possible for a long time), and we all know how good the AI is in finding the weak cities... .
If we are not dead after the first Impi, I'm open for our build-queue in Zimb:
A: rax-Impi-settler-Impi
B: Impi-settler...
C: gamble a bit: no first Impi, immediately rax and then 2 Impis, then settler.

Sorry, if I delayed the game, but I really think that this is an important stage (I expected the fun to begin at my second set of turns, not yet, oh well...) if we want to survive, because Gothmog can only defend us with the things we build NOW.
I'm taking a time-out now and will check in later. If no one has responded, I will play my ten turns, hopefully appropriate

Belisar

 

[Belisar]

i forgot a funny detail: We can not trade! They are rel. and expan., meaning they already have Potttery and CB, and we certainly don't want to give them WC

And hier the position of the arab scout.

 

[Gothmog]

OK, no need to panic. I was surprized we hadn't met anyone based on how much of the landmass we have already explored, but they found us anyway! I'm guessing that the Arabs are quite a bit south and possibly a bit more west of us, as you point our a scout could have come a long way already. It's probably us and them on this side of the isthmus and the other two civs on the other side of it. If that is the case then we will only have to deal with them and not a full blown dogpile (yet). We are only playing emperor so they only have their starting units and not much else. Ulundi I am more worried about, as you point out the AI is uncanny at finding weakness. If we lose Ulundi all we have lost is our expansionist given free city - we could overcome that.

I haven't looked at the save but here is what I would do.

Send our scout cautiously south to... well... scout! Build regular Impi out of Zimbabwe, I guess you could build two during your turns. Send the first one to Ulundi (pending scout info). Don't whip Zimbabwe until we get a status report from our scout. Same for Ulundi, use any information to our advantage. If they are close build a warrior - better than nothing and a fortified reg warrior can beat an attacking reg warrior handily and possibly promote. If they take 13 turns to get to Ulundi then you could build an Impi but two warriors are about as good as an Impi in this situation anyway.

So you've been thrown into the fire, now I've got to go deal with the kids for a while, then I'll check back in and maybe look at the save. Good luck, remember you asked for this.

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by Gothmog
I was surprized we hadn't met anyone based on how much of the landmass we have already explored, but they found us anyway!

I guess it's a combination between small world, expans. AI and bad luck.

We are only playing emperor so they only have their starting units and not much else. Ulundi I am more worried about.
[/B]

If we were playing deity, I simply would have asked for a re-start . We certainly can handle the AI starting units. Our main problem is the delay for all settlers, but well.

Don't whip Zimbabwe until we get a status report from our scout. Same for Ulundi, use any information to our advantage.
[/B]

I intended to to go with exaxtly this method. Build the first Impi and whip only as 'last ditch' .
Expect the save in about two hours, if nothing goes wrong.

 

[Gothmog]

OK, feel free to stop in with a status report if you like. But really there's not much to say or do, just don't panic and use our scout to our best advantage (don't lose him). As long as we don't end up whipping Zimbabwe or losing Ulundi were doing great! Hopefully we'll live long enough to have our Impi pillage those Arabian bastards.

 

[Belisar]

Here we go:

Preturn: Well, you already know that....

3000: Contacted Abu Bakr. They have a second city and
are ahead Masonry and Myst, AND they already have WC...
No deals possible, declared war
Changed Zimb. and Ulundi to Impi (due in 3 and 7)

2950: The Arabian Scout moves on the mountain west of Zimb

2900: A.Scout moves into the FoW (west), continue exploring south of Zimb
worker starts mining

2850: Zimb builds our first military unit: Impi, I MM to get another in 3

2800: A single Arab warrior is spottet, 5 tiles SSW of Zimb
our Scout will keep an eye on him. Best of all: it's a conscript and
there is rough land in the south. They are not immediately near us, that
should give us some time

2750: -

2710: Zimb builds the second Impi, -> settler
Arab warrior (still one) moves to mountain (5 tiles SSE of Zimb)
lux to 10%

2670: lux 20% (Zimb 5), Wheel in 2
Ulundi builds Impi, I'm now feeling better, -> rax
It will need a temple at some point to make use of those game and a
worker from Zimb. BTW, I hate these non-ind. workers. Mining lasts forever..

2630: I still see only one warrior, he fortified in the woods SSE of Zimb.
(4 tiles away)

2590: We get the Wheel and I go for HBR in 16. Settler in Zimb is next turn and
the Arabian Conscript is still fortified in the wood tile one tile north
of the mountain. There seems to be jungle in the south, so scouting will
be a problem.


Good luck Gothmog. If they are still not coming you could use the second Impi
in Zimb as settler guide. We also need some offensive military soon, otherwise
WE are going to get pillaged. May the reign of Shaka be glorious

Belisar

And the save...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Shaka_AW_2590BC.zip

 

[Gothmog]

'got it' goin to sleep now though.

 

[Gothmog]

Preturn - wake worker. The extra shield wont help Zim get to 10 spt anyway (it's at 7 now) and we need roads between our cities. Take note that the only horse is way to our east.

(1) 2550 BC - Wake Impi from Zimbabwe and send to scout and protect settler. Send settler to spot on lake to east.

(2) 2510 BC - Put Impi on good spot on mountain. ZIm -> racks, send scout west.

(3) 2470 BC - (IT) - Zim racks -> archer. Ottoman spear spotted south of Ulundi, no deals possible.

(4) 2430 BC - Bapedi founded -> warrior. Cut off Otto w/Impi from mountain.

(IT) Otto heads back south.

(6) 2350 BC - (IT) - arabian conscript joins w/a reg and moves NE (I had N blocked w/Impi) another reg warrior right behind.

(7) 2310 BC - Zim archer -> settler. Spot a fourth arabian warrior (reg).

(IT) - Ulundi racks -> Impi (will whip next turn).

(9) 2230 BC - Bapedi warrior -> worker. Move warrior south.

(IT) - Warrior attacks our warrior (in forest across river), we promote. The conscript tries his luck and we now have an elite warrior. 2 reg warriors appear SE of Zimbabwe.

(10) 2190 BC - defensive movement.

Notes - Golden Age coming soon to a game near you. Things look OK, we need to get another worker and settler so don't change those unless you absolutely need to. The only enemy troops I know of are visible in the screen shot below. CoffeeCup, your up - take your time and think before you move.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM2_2190.zip

 

[Coffee]

Ok Gothmog and thanks. I can do that. Are we are using Sky's dot map?
Got it.

 

[Gothmog]

I think that was the consensus. IIRC, the basic difference was the city to the north of Zimbabwe is moved one tile to the NE to put it on the river and to give some breathing room.

Be sure to build another settler on your turns, we die if we don't continue to expand. The Ottoman's will send troops our way before too long so be aware. We might want masonry as our next tech, I was tempted to swap off of HB at the beginning (we have no horses and wont for a while) but didn't. It is possible that there are horses under the fog to the N or NW. It would be great to be able build walls in cities under siege and it is one step towards math and catapults.

Good luck CoffeeCup.

 

[Sirp]

Hmm....can we spare an impi or two to go and do an early pillaging run on the arabs? If we manage one this early, it could really cripple them. Even scouts can be used for an early pillaging raid this early, presuming they don't have another purpose.

-Sirp.

 

[Coffee]

Preturn 2190 BC
HBR due in 10t @ +3gpt, 6t @ -1gpt, GA due next turn, adjust slider.
After HBR => Math for cats
Question: If we establish an embassy, we can steal WM/tech. Yes/No?
We will need luxuries, happiness @ 30%, GA should change that. Perhaps a colony.
Arabia & Otto are in the SW, small map, If we are lucky & get horses those plains in the SW look like good ground for a swarm. I may delay city placement to get at that the horses.

IBT; We enter our GA, 2 more Arab Warriors join the game. Have 4 warriors on mountain 1 tile from worker.

1 - 2150 BC
Worker actions complete in 1t. Ok.
Archer to worker.
Lux to 20%, Science increased, HBR due in 4, 0gpt.
Swap Bapedi worker to Impi, have 3t to growth, can change back.
Zim builds settler => Imp. Send settler north, #2 site.
Scout south.

IBT; 5 warrior sod next to Ulundi.

2 - 2110 BC
Worker completes road, to site #2.
Archer to Bapedi Imp blocker.
Bapedi Imp to Ulundi.
Zim Imp to Archer. Lux to 30%, -3gpt, settler on site. 3 Imps in Uludi.
Scout in south did not reveal any more warriors.
The archer move was not a good choice, sorry.

IBT; 4 warriors impale themselves on Ulundi, almost got a GL, lost 1 Imp, the Zim vet.

3 - 2070 BC
Hlobane founded, barracks statred, 3spt
Bapedi warrior to Zimbabwe, lux to 20%, drop science, HBR in 2t, +2gpt.
Scout revals nothing. I'm optimistic.
Bapedi; Imp => worker.
Zim; Imp => settler
Archer defeats warrior.

4 - 2030 BC
Bapedi worker => Imp, send to join up. Move archer to mtn.
Adust slider, HBR in 1t, settler in 1t.
Not a good choice with the worker, returning to irrigate, can get same spt plus extra food, sorry again, you guys may get tired of reading that. Checked this again and not as bad I thought.


5 - 1990 BC
Stayed with original worker plan.
Horse are bout 7-8 tiles north of Ulundi. HBR => Math.
Zimbabwe, settler => Imp, settler to #4 site.

6 - 1950 BC
no change, shuffle Archer & Imp

IBT; Arab found city at Scouts location,bout 9 tiles south of Zimbabwe.

7 - 1910 BC
I decide to send join Imp/Archer and send south. Thats about 2 tiles south when Sirp picks it up.

8 - 1870 BC
Isandhlwana founded, barracks started.
Zimbabwe Imp = > settler, Thinking we need to go for the horses.
Send a Ulundi Imp to join Archer/Imp pair.
Scout has settled in near Arab camp.

9 - 1830 BC
no change

10 - 1790 BC
Hlobane barracks => worker
Ulundi Imp => Imp
Slider adjusted, Masonary due in 1t.

Left worker actions and Imp/Archer moves for Sirp. Note: the scout is fortified.

Good luck Sirp.

The game
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM2-1790BC.SAV

Edit...... I jumped in and played, missed the revised city #4 revision. (not so)

Edit2.... I would like to suggest sending the next settler to the Isthmus and building a colony on the horse resource. If my turn log is not readable, just say so, I will post a summary. What is IIRC?

 

[Belisar]

Ottoman spear spotted south of Ulundi

Both Arabs and Ottos to the south? We will have to block that isthmus ASAP to concentrate on two southern enemies.

 

[Gothmog]

@CoffeeCup - your turn log is readable but it is nice to post a picture of the final position if things have changed markedly. For example I'm not sure how many workers we have or where our new cities are (partially because I didn't print out the dotmap but even so we never had a full one done after the discussions), also a picture of the Arabs city and other troop positions gives information not available from your log. From your decision to send an archer/Impi south I assume we are in good defensive position. Also that we haven't seen any more troops from Otto. If this is the case then the scout should either be heading south to gain map info and look for pillaging opportunities, or scouting our our northern areas. In answer to your question, you cannot steal techs until espionage and spy's as there are no embassies during war.

@Belisar - It may be that we have a pangea with a large 'sea' in the middle, or as you say that the Arabs and Ottos are both to the south - southeast, but given where we are on the mini-map I wouldn't be surprized if there is a circuitous route around the isthmus.

While I am sure Sirp has this under control I want to put in my opinion about cities in the near future. We need a strong core more than anything else; since we made contact with two civs already we don't have the luxury of reaching out for things at the moment. Also I doubt we can spare a worker to build a colony, if we happen to grab some slaves then that might be a good use for one. If I read the turnlog correctly only one worker was built on your turns CoffeeCup? So we have like 3 now, not enough. As Sky would say: must... have... more... workers. We have lots of plains that need irrigation to allow for growth. Another priority is getting at least one luxury hooked up, we have dyes to our west that will be in our first ring. Anyway, my point is that the only way to survive at the moment is to become productive, we can deal with Impi and archers as our troops for now - hopfully we'll get cat's soon too. We must have horses and Iron as we enter the middle ages, but that's a way's away yet. A nonproductive city towards the isthmus will not help us IMO.

Of course I do like the idea of sending some Impi south to pillage our enemies. That's making good use of our powerful UU.

Edit: as the organizer of this SG I wanted to post a turn order again.

Skyfish (on deck)
Belisar
Gothmog
CoffeeCup
Sirp (up now)

also @CoffeeCup - IIRC is 'if I recall correctly', another one you might see (Sirp uses this one) is FWIW 'for what it's worth'.

 

[Coffee]

@Gothmog, 1 worker, 2 settlers/cities, 1 barracks, 2 Imps (IIRC) were completed during my tenure. 6 Arab warriors defeated and 1 Impi lost. The stats look good but we are in our GA, due to end at the end of Sirps reign.

We are not a good defensive position, except by reason of the distance. I played something of a farmers gambit. Sending the Impi south will draw off the Arabs, giving us some lead time to develop the core.

I would love to have the horses hooked up. Perhaps too much to accomplish this soon. IMHO.

IIRC = If I recall correctly
FWIW = For what it's worth
IMO = In My Opinion
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
OTOH = On The Other Hand
ASFAIK = As Far As I know

 

[Sirp]

Ok I got it.

 

[Sirp]

IT 1790BC: One impi goes south to try to get into Arabia for some pillaging. Scout starts doing some rather risky scouting, and will perhaps try to penetrate into Arabia.

(1) 1750BC: Research Masonry -> Alphabet. I send an impi east to try to secure that chokepoint toward the Ottomans.

(2) 1725BC: Zimbabwe settler -> impi. We want to bulk it up a bit before building more settlers.

(3) 1700BC: Our impi going east spots some Ottoman warriors.

(4) 1675BC: Our impi fights off two warriors and promotes to veteran. The third warrior is lingering around to the east of our empire. Our scout spots an Arabian source of horses. Will snip next turn.

Intombe is founded north-west of the capital. Its placement is intended to get it productive asap.

(5) 1650BC: An Arabian archer moves onto the horses, and forces our scout to abort the snip attempt. An Arabian archer is heading past an impi of ours and I fortify our impi on mountains, hoping he will be foolish enough to attack.

(6) 1625BC: They are stupid enough to attack, and that's one dead Arabian archer.

(7) 1600BC: Research: Masonry -> Math, due in 8 turns @-1. Archer moves past our scout, and our scout moves in for snip attempt take 2.

(8) 1575BC: Another Arabian archer comes along to foil snip take 2. An impi has almost arrived now. I wonder if they'll attack us on mountains again. But, the Arabs have quite a few archers coming north toward us, and they're all veterans! Does the AI build barracks more now or something?

Zimbabwe impi -> settler.

(9) 1550BC: It seems that the Arabs are willing to impale themselves on our mountain-impi like fools! One dies and promotes our uninjured impi to veteran, and another heads back towards us after heading north. Our daring scout tries once again to prepare to pillage the Arabian lands.

(10) 1525BC: Our impi and scout are engaged in a cat-and-mouse game with the Arabian archers. Now we just have to pillage thoses horses before they actually build some horsemen!

I spare an impi to head east to do a pillaging run on the Ottomans.

Notes:

- I suggest the settler out of Zimbabwe head west and build on the dyes very near to us.
- We have a SEVERE food shortage, and thus are having trouble building enough workers and settlers. I suggest a city slightly north-east of Bapedi, on the river, which will get the grassland wheat in our radius so we can build more workers. Our non-capital cities are bearing the burden of building workers at the moment, but this has left all of them except for Ulundi at size 1!

- We do have 5 workers now, which is getting a little better.

- We also have a scout, a warrior, 2 archers and 9 impi. I killed 2 warriors and 2 archers on my turn, yet didn't lose any of our troops! I'm very happy with that

- From what I've seen, throwing impi at our enemies is working *really* well. It distracts them to have all these impi running around, and doesn't let them get near our borders. I've sent an impi east to do a pillaging run on them. Note that that impi guarding the chokepoint, on the hills should stay there at all times. Do NOT succumb to the temptation to send him beyond the choke to explore/pillage. He's too important guarding the choke where he is. It'll be hard for the Ottomans to dislodge him without swords.

- That Ottoman warrior that we can see is the only known warrior to make it west of the choke (alive )

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game

 

[Skyfish]

Real nice turns, as uual from Master Sirp !


I think its my turn innit ?

But theres no save file

Aha simul posting again !

 

[Sirp]

Skyfish (up now)
Belisar (on deck)
Gothmog
CoffeeCup
Sirp

 

[Gothmog]

Yes, nicely done Sir Sirp. I agree that we should continue to send Impi for guerilla tactics against our enemies. They will also act as scouts alerting us to any SOD's and such. A very nice unit those Impi. Indeed, keep the choke position at all costs - send another Impi over there etc. We're now at 5 workers and 6 cities, getting better all the time. We can do this, we need to keep the Ottomen sealed off and expand while harassing the Arabs until we can build an offensive force to go after them with.

One worry I have is that the 4th civ is most likely east of the Ottomen and being allowed to expand and research peacefully. Not good. If (once) we get two Impi on the Choke, a third could be sent to make contact and get them into war mode.

I leave it in the hands of the capable Chieftan Skyfish.