GM and GE should get the scaling treatment like other GPs

[CrazyG]

Playing semantics doesn't change the fact that AI cannot neither use that "feature", nor save GEs for later use. According to VP philosophy that should be either a) removed / nerfed to make AI more competitive b) AI should learn those tricks c) AI should get another bonus to make-up for humans being so smart.

We should consider implementing B, or just upping the manufactory

Also engineers really benefit tradition more than other trees

And to be clear - I’d rather boost manufacturies, so they would be competetive to popping GEs.

We can try this, but just keep in mind that your first engineer potentially is worth the Oracle, we need to make a single tile worth an entire social policy without making it super snowbally. It should probably buff future engineers in my opinion, and I think it should get a really fat bonus at a tech such as industrialization. another option would be just giving something like +5 or 10% production in the city, this lets it scale much better.

 

[Txurce]

Keep in mind that your first engineer potentially is worth the Oracle, we need to make a single tile worth an entire social policy without making it super snowbally. It should probably buff future engineers in my opinion, and I think it should get a really fat bonus at a tech such as industrialization. another option would be just giving something like +5 or 10% production in the city, this lets it scale much better.

I like the idea of a % (or era) bump to production more than a giant bump at Industrialization.

 

[CrazyG]

I like the idea of a % (or era) bump to production more than a giant bump at Industrialization.

You are probably right, if it gave like 10% production that makes it more competitive with wonders long term. I think we could still do like +2 hammers at industrialization though, its thematic. Academies are worthwhile because they get so many buffs over time and they boost future great scientists.

 

[Infixo]

We can try this, but just keep in mind that your first engineer potentially is worth the Oracle, we need to make a single tile worth an entire social policy without making it Besidessuper snowbally.

Yup... and as long as there will be such an option, I will always pop him. And this is wrong, I think. Manufacture, no matter how boosted, will never match that. It is simply too good.
Another idea for GE. Besides boosting Manufactury, maybe change how GE popping works. Simply make him finish 50% of a Wonder, always. It will speed up building significantly, but will not remove the wonder-race entirely. Yeah, another negative effect of bulbing GE - no wonder-race thrill
And if he is neither popped nor changed into Manufactury, when he stays in the City he could boost all Buildings production by e.g. 10%.

 

[CrazyG]

Yup... and as long as there will be such an option, I will always pop him. And this is wrong, I think. Manufacture, no matter how boosted, will never match that. It is simply too good.
Another idea for GE. Besides boosting Manufactury, maybe change how GE popping works. Simply make him finish 50% of a Wonder, always. It will speed up building significantly, but will not remove the wonder-race entirely. Yeah, another negative effect of bulbing GE - no wonder-race thrill
And if he is neither popped nor changed into Manufactury, when he stays in the City he could boost all Buildings production by e.g. 10%.

We could just alter the forumla for popping. Currently its always good enough for an early wonder, but it starts to be worth less later on. I'm going by memory, but the formula is something like 150 +30 per population. We could lower that 150 so that early on its not a guaranteed wonder, and compensate by giving all future great engineers like +15% per existing manufactory

Later on its not worth an entire wonder, by that stage it takes too long for the manufactory to be worthwhile (you can just burn it on a public school or factory instead, the manufactory can't ever pay for itself by that stage)

 

[tu_79]

We could just alter the forumla for popping. Currently its always good enough for an early wonder, but it starts to be worth less later on. I'm going by memory, but the formula is something like 150 +30 per population. We could lower that 150 so that early on its not a guaranteed wonder, and compensate by giving all future great engineers like +15% per existing manufactory

Later on its not worth an entire wonder, by that stage it takes too long for the manufactory to be worthwhile (you can just burn it on a public school or factory instead, the manufactory can't ever pay for itself by that stage)

I was about to suggest an increase in the effect of Manufactories over the Great Engineer bulbing.

 

[matlajs]

i like an idea of % boost to production. it's something that could really helps a lot to tradition.

 

[Gazebo]

Playing semantics doesn't change the fact that AI cannot neither use that "feature", nor save GEs for later use. According to VP philosophy that should be either a) removed / nerfed to make AI more competitive b) AI should learn those tricks c) AI should get another bonus to make-up for humans being so smart.

The AI knows how to hurry wonders.

G

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Manufacturies definitely feel weak. I think it'd be cool if they sliced off some of the "you already built a wonder" malus or something.

 

[pineappledan]

I like the idea of scaling by manufactories, but shouldn’t it scale by 25% or more per manufactory? The scaling would have to be GREATER than the current 20% by population, not less than. 20 pop cities aren’t uncommon by industrial, but 20 manufactories on empire certainly would be

 

[Deadstarre]

The AI knows how to hurry wonders.

G

but they don't know how to hold them for 20 turns until the moment is ripe to get the perfect wonder for their strategy, or understand to use them to get a wonder like Pisa, then take a GE, not make a manufactory with it, but hold it again for the next wonder coming up. and they definitely dont evaluate tech costs to know whether they are the only ones capable of building a wonder or not and thus, whether a wonder needs to be rushed or not. therein lies some of the problems

 

[Txurce]

but they don't know how to hold them for 20 turns until the moment is ripe to get the perfect wonder for their strategy, or understand to use them to get a wonder like Pisa, then take a GE, not make a manufactory with it, but hold it again for the next wonder coming up. and they definitely dont evaluate tech costs to know whether they are the only ones capable of building a wonder or not and thus, whether a wonder needs to be rushed or not. therein lies some of the problems

That's all true, which boils down to Gazebo saying they know how to use them, and you saying true, but not as well as the human. But this applies to almost any non-obvious aspect of the game -- most obviously combat. At some point an entertaining balance has to be struck (and accepted) that acknowledges inevitable human intellectual superiority with a competitive AI. The AI is clearly competitive now, as evidenced by the overwhelming satisfaction (and competitive games) that you see here in each player's chosen level. Given this, I'm not interested in achieving more AI gameplay balance at all costs.

 

[Gazebo]

but they don't know how to hold them for 20 turns until the moment is ripe to get the perfect wonder for their strategy, or understand to use them to get a wonder like Pisa, then take a GE, not make a manufactory with it, but hold it again for the next wonder coming up. and they definitely dont evaluate tech costs to know whether they are the only ones capable of building a wonder or not and thus, whether a wonder needs to be rushed or not. therein lies some of the problems

I never said the AI was human.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

I was just explaining why I disabled it. I think where the best wonders in the game are concerned (and theyre powerful) there could definitely be a better system in place than has been the case. im absolutely positive there are solutions available that would be more fair to the AIs weakness without compromising Txurce dear enjoyment of the game =)